After 12 years, why do people still refer to grind as "content"?

[clevin]

well if it's something to do in the world then yeah, it's content. The problem with grinds is that they need to have a point to them (for me at least). So, for example, a gear grind is worthwhile if you're wanting to raid. It's similar, psychologically, to leveling. You do the activity to get to a point where you can do some new content.

It's why I don't value piling up gold - I don't get any pleasure from simply having a ton of gold. Similarly, a person who has no intention of raiding or doing mythic+ dungeons probably will get to 825-830 level and see little point in going much further. Mats farming? Unless you like being the go to person in your guild for making things, eh.

It's why I'm pausing y sub to Legion - I don't raid anymore and I don't think we'll end up with a consistent Mythic+ group (and anyway, making content just harder isn't that interesting to me). This isn't Legion so much as it is me. When I raided I *loved* hunting down gear upgrades, getting a feel for how my character played in group content, etc. Now? Eh.

[Kul Tiras]

Is a game that is full of repetitive tasks and that many people mock for being shallow and bland. Again, you come off as the kind of person that would tout around beating Dark Souls as an achievement. Witcher, Mass Effect, Dark Souls, all games that are commonly mocked for the first being a shitty RPG, the second having a shitty story, and the third being overhyped for difficulty.

I'm not saying anyone is at fault for enjoying them, but you're speaking in a condescending tone towards a game while defending your self with games that have been picked apart numerous times. You're not in a position to say what is objectively bad with any sort of validity.

Nice cherry picking of that entire post, i see you people have downgraded to no longer even quoting a phrase, you just take one word and throw the kitchen sink. I could say "black people are often great teachers", and you'd probably quote "black people" and call me a racist right? Whatever.

so....

When you say those are games that are commonly mocked do you mean commonly mocked by the 1% of the hipster population that plays 2D pixels games made by independent developers with budgets of 1k $ which would look great on Gameboy 1?

Witcher 3, an RPG which has:

- more buffs than WoW has
- more talent choices than WoW has per spec
- more specs than WoW has (on its main character), unless you count feral druid, with the capacity to build hybrid specs, like you used to be able to do in WoW pre-cata.
- more story choices than WoW has (although with 0%, that's not saying much for WoW itself)
- more exploration than WoW has
- better fast travel system yet still makes you want to explore more than WoW, even with flight removed
- better voiced quests than WoW has, voiced quests to begin with, vs Khadgar appearing on your screen spouting platitudes now and then
- better in-game video story moments than WoW has, and many more in number
- more cinematics than WoW's current expansion has, with more interesting dialogue and atmosphere and originality
- more focus on crafting oriented gearing than WoW has, even for end game

But yes, please tell me how WoW is a better RPG than W3.

[Minoan]

For $60 a pack, I'm getting decent quest pack, pretty world, and impressive 5man interaction like in your MOBAs(assuming they will fix everything before I will switch to my warlock and paladin alts). Order Hall Campaigns were...Overhyped for me? I wasn't grinding much for them, I wont go into spoilers, but certain point of DHs was just silly, shaman starts with Fat Ass Jokes(fantasy game wut), and in Priest campaign you are but the paladin's puppet of light. Well that were my impressions @Kul Tiras well yeah well now compare the amount of content Blizz release per 2 years and the length of W3 development

[Vash The Stampede]

It's less about being "conditioned" and more about the reality of game design. We can consume content far quicker than they can create it. Gating (whether it be grinds or just wait x amount of time) is how they slow us down and keep us from consuming content quicker than they are able to push it out. Maybe there is a better way to do things, I don't know. But it seems to me that any way of artificially slowing us down will be rather transparent, especially at this point where the MMO genre is old hat.

I'd hate to be the game designers, cause I'd imagine Blizzard keeps pushing them to create content, while gamers consume it faster. But that's the reality of game design, in that you can't make it faster than the consumer consumes it. At the same time, why are we concerned about a constant flow of content? Can't we just play the game for a while and quit until another expansion is released?

That and some people legitimately like grinding. I don't mind it, as long as there are incremental rewards that make me feel like I accomplished something. Basically all MMO's, and to some degree games in general work of the Skinners Box theory. We like to feel accomplishment. It makes us feel good. We play games because they give us a sense of accomplishment, either beating an opponent, getting that piece of sought after gear, hitting max level, dismantling a human opponent, etc etc. Another term for this is Operant conditioning chamber. So just so you know you aren't entirely wrong, it's definitely a form of conditioning. Though the box in this case is ourselves.

Every game has some grinding to it. Dark Souls games have some grinding in it, just no where near as much as WoW. And Dark Souls has no timer on what you can or can't do. The limiting factor has always been skill. Vanilla WoW used to use difficulty as a way to slow players progression through content, but todays WoW obviously doesn't work that way.

All that being said, it's not some nefarious intent on Blizzards part to teach us that grinding is good. Just that it's one way to tackle the issue of creation vs. consumption. It just so happens that this also turns into a skinners box of our own self making.

If Blizzard was smart, they'd realize they're ruining WoW with the perpetual crap content that people burn through too quickly. This is all perpetuated because of the monthly fee. Take away the subscriptions, and developers can take their time making expansions with quality content, instead of copy and paste content.

[roahn the warlock]

Probably because they understand the MMORPG Genre.

[Deleted]

After 12 years, why do people still refer to content as "grind"?

[Daffan]

Because in the original games/expacs the grind felt worth it because you needed it to beat the content. It was basically a preparation phase that was required or else it would of been impossible to progress. Character Progression

Now you just grind the easy content to get the free gear so you can clear the raid easy (maybe not when it opens, but soon enough you'l have as good gear as the raid your trying to beat drops LOL and then it's easy)

Then patch comes out and it just repeats. Infinite treadmill these days.

[Dequanacus]

But yes, please tell me how WoW is a better RPG than W3.

Why would I do that when I never made that argument in the first place? Hypocritically enough you completely ignored the points I put forward in my post just to accuse me of doing the same. The difference being, I targeted a specific part of your argument that I strongly disagreed with and pointed it out, you artificially created an argument of your own and attributed it to me. Your entire post is not only invalid, but irrelevant.

If you want to challenge the points I actually put forth in my earlier post, I welcome it. The post that I'm replying to however is only poor reading comprehension on your part, your point about blacks and racism are a false equivalence.

[Kul Tiras]

I addressed your lack of points, which were simply childish attacks on 3 of the greatest franchises in PC gaming, with concrete examples, and here you are again with more basic childish nonsense, claiming how you targeted arguments when all you did was ignore any argument I made and go on about how you hate said x/y/z franchises, because "a lot of people also make fun of these games".

If you'd actually tell me what points I'm supposed to address other than the ones I've already destroyed with actual examples, I'd be happy to destroy those too.

[Deleted]

The effort = reward principle is lost on some i guess.

Shall we just give you a big bag of indefinate materials and BiS epic gear along with 2 legendaries and all the mounts?
No. Because then you'd be complaining about a lack of content.

Every popular game has a grind variable reward. CoD prestige, FIFA highest divisions, BF weapon unlocks, etc.
Maybe video games arent for you (anymore)?

[Shakou]

Better question, why does this thread have 10 pages? Content is anything they put in the game. Or do you not know what the word content means?

[Jewsco]

Better question, why does this thread have 10 pages? Content is anything they put in the game. Or do you not know what the word content means?

Exactly and what might seem to be content to one person is to another. Find what you like to do and do it if you can't find enough or anything you like then it might be time to stop playing the game.

[Deleted]

Better question, why does this thread have 10 pages? Content is anything they put in the game. Or do you not know what the word content means?

Because if he referred to quality content we would have 30 pages of what defines quality while quality is subjective. Or something

[Xires]

Mats farming
Rep farming
Artifact farming
Level farming
Gold farming
Gear grinding
Achievement farming (the pointless shit, i.e. anything almost everything not PVP)
Daily farming
etc

Any action which consists of repetitive actions which require no real personal skill (aside from knowing your class combos and not to stand in fire) nor offer any challenge, which simply required time wasted to be completed.

Where are the in-game lore books, where are the parties of enemies attacking different outposts with different strategies each time requiring player intervention, where are the secrets aside from something to summon another mount boss, where is the new mounted/aerial/naval combat based on skill and not memorized rotations, where are the Wintergrasp style PVP world zones with different tactics to breach your enemies' keeps, like tunneling, ladders and flying machines?

It's been 12 years of the same, same grind, to the point I see people actually cheering for fucking REP GRINDS, like you didn't get enough of it during BC, and daily quests. Why are these grinds so LOVINGLY referred to by people as content?

Welcome to the world of MMO's? Do YOU have any idea's on what we should be doing? Or do you like sitting in city's/garrisons all day waiting to raid? This is the BEST x-pac they have ever done. Their are different ways to go about progressing your character and their are a TON of things to do. GRINDING is and has always been apart of the MMO world and for the ones that aren't those are simply pay to win. Accept it or move on with your life. /thread

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Because in the original games/expacs the grind felt worth it because you needed it to beat the content. It was basically a preparation phase that was required or else it would of been impossible to progress. Character Progression

Now you just grind the easy content to get the free gear so you can clear the raid easy (maybe not when it opens, but soon enough you'l have as good gear as the raid your trying to beat drops LOL and then it's easy)

Then patch comes out and it just repeats. Infinite treadmill these days.

Yeah, because every wq is going to drop titanforged gear with the stats you need amirite? You'll find that you are far behind guilds that clear mythic while you go about your WQ's hoping that your gear actually procs that high. Give me a break. lol

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I'd hate to be the game designers, cause I'd imagine Blizzard keeps pushing them to create content, while gamers consume it faster. But that's the reality of game design, in that you can't make it faster than the consumer consumes it. At the same time, why are we concerned about a constant flow of content? Can't we just play the game for a while and quit until another expansion is released?

Every game has some grinding to it. Dark Souls games have some grinding in it, just no where near as much as WoW. And Dark Souls has no timer on what you can or can't do. The limiting factor has always been skill. Vanilla WoW used to use difficulty as a way to slow players progression through content, but todays WoW obviously doesn't work that way.


If Blizzard was smart, they'd realize they're ruining WoW with the perpetual crap content that people burn through too quickly. This is all perpetuated because of the monthly fee. Take away the subscriptions, and developers can take their time making expansions with quality content, instead of copy and paste content.

Yeah! Because all those free to play games are so amazing!!!! Oh....wait...they aren't.

[Deleted]

because after twelve years the real old skoolers know the difference between a REAL grind and returning rotation of quests that is needed to progress a story or other piece of content.

if you only just noticed you are either really thick or simply in need of an eyeopener to realize that mmo's are really not your thing.

hf @ mariokart

[SirBeef]

By your logic Raids should be added to this list too. Don't know about you but by the time a few of these raid tiers have ended I was mindlessly going through the Tuesday night weekly mythic farm. There wasn't any skill needed anymore, we were just repeating the same action we did every Tuesday.

And everybody's favorite grind, dungeons. Can't do that on Tuesday's gotta raid. :P

[Sapphire35]

OP what exactly do you want here? Run a 5-man once and then Blizzard just puts another one out every 30 min? I've been playing since EQ1 classic and MMOs have always been grindy. Grinds can be fun as long as your character makes progression.

Also, not to sound like an old creep, but we live in 2016. With high-end PCs and broadband internet in every home. My grandparents had to do puzzles, stamp collections, or play Solitaire for the zillionth time for entertainment. Stop whining and enjoy Legion.

[SirBeef]

because after twelve years the real old skoolers know the difference between a REAL grind and returning rotation of quests that is needed to progress a story or other piece of content.

if you only just noticed you are either really thick or simply in need of an eyeopener to realize that mmo's are really not your thing.

hf @ mariokart

Oh you must mean the real grind of mindlessly killing the same mobs over and over again without direction. Or the mindless clearing of the same raid over and over again. I would rather have it this way, than the old way. I do wish they had some rep from kills or at least while you were killing mobs for WQs.

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If Blizzard was smart, they'd realize they're ruining WoW with the perpetual crap content that people burn through too quickly. This is all perpetuated because of the monthly fee. Take away the subscriptions, and developers can take their time making expansions with quality content, instead of copy and paste content.

Spoken like someone who does not know what he's talking about and believe me I know what this is like. There is not a free MMO that does what you just claimed would happen.

[lightofdawn]

Some people enjoy eating fat and grease-laden fast food. That doesn't make it good.

thats just a stupid argument. the game is purely subjective, there isnt inherently a downside to playing it as there is with fast food. but if you wanna use a stupid argument go for it.

[Al Gorefiend]

Life is a grind OP.

Sleep 8 hours
Drive through traffic
Work/school 8 hours
Pay bills
Cook food
Clean self
1-2 hours of free time
Go back to sleep

Wow such engaging content.

The only truly shit grind content in WoW is Voidtalon mounts. You're paying Blizzard money for standing in a spot tabbed out for 6+ hours a day. Of course, you don't HAVE to do this.