1. #10961
    Did anyone do the math at which amounts of mastery our blockchance reaches a level at which holy shield might be of interest?
    Yes, I know -15% damage flat (from anyone inside the hammer range) is pretty strong (and smooth, because linear) but given the amount of blockchance already available (and holy shield ads another 10% beyond diminishing returns) this talent might be of interest with gearlevels beyond 900.

    As a sidenote: since selfhealing largely depends on missing health, wouldn't that give stam a bigger bonus to our selfheal than Str? All in all, Str feels really weak to me...

  2. #10962
    Prot paladins weren't top and probably haven't ever been 'top' since warrior/druid have immovable HP bars, but blizzard prefers immovable HP bars that you slowly die from ticking down to prot paladins who have spikey HP bars but do a ton of healing.

    A nerf was probably warranted, but I think they may have overdone it on that talent.

  3. #10963
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    what's with the Prot damage and healing nerfs?
    Were Prot Paladins the top tanks?
    How did they jsutify such an act?


    everyone got nerfed you muppet

  4. #10964
    Quote Originally Posted by Arteezy View Post
    everyone got nerfed you muppet
    how about mannering up you fethwipe.

  5. #10965
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    how about mannering up you fethwipe.
    (Hotfix in testing; to be applied with next weekly maintenance) Most abilities used by Tank specializations have had their damage reduced by 10%. Abilities which are shared with other specializations remain unchanged for those other specializations.
    (Hotfix in testing; to be applied with next weekly maintenance) Light of the Protector and Hand of the Protector now heals for 30% of missing health (down from 35%).
    (Hotfix in testing; to be applied with next weekly maintenance) Scatter the Shadows (Protection Paladin artifact trait) now increases the healing of Light of the Protector by 6/12/18% (down from 10/20/30%).
    Developers’ Notes: Protection Paladin self-healing was buffed substantially near the end of beta, based on concerns that it was too weak, but those concerns have proved unfounded. We're bringing it back down to its intended level.
    Source: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/7...-september-21/ both hotfixes from September 16th. The reasoning and explanation were given at the same time, and in the same location, as the information on the changes themseleves.

  6. #10966
    Quote Originally Posted by darkwarrior42 View Post
    Source: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/7...-september-21/ both hotfixes from September 16th. The reasoning and explanation were given at the same time, and in the same location, as the information on the changes themseleves.
    thank you for somewhat detailed response.

  7. #10967
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by TenDance View Post
    Did anyone do the math at which amounts of mastery our blockchance reaches a level at which holy shield might be of interest?
    BH and HS are pretty close to each other in terms of survivability anyway, but in any sim I have done so far, BH was always ahead in damage, HS was sometimes ahead in survivability with as little as 5000 mastery, depending on the configuration. The reason why I don't like mastery is because it's much weaker when I use BH. Haste and versa are always good stats while mastery would tie me to one talent. If you prefer using HS, then do it. It's not like you lose a lot of damage/survivability. Mastery is almost as good as haste and versa when you play with HS.

    Crit is still garbage (but good for DPS).

    Quote Originally Posted by TenDance View Post
    As a sidenote: since selfhealing largely depends on missing health, wouldn't that give stam a bigger bonus to our selfheal than Str? All in all, Str feels really weak to me...
    You need an awful lot of stamina to make a difference. Stamina is a very good way to reduce TMI but if you don't really need the HP you're better off geting literally anything else. Strength doesn't affect LotP/HotP. At all. It increases the absorb of BoO by increasing the damage though. As a defensive stat, sterngth is even worse that crit. It provides the same benefit (parry) but at a much lower rating conversion.

  8. #10968
    Sims are shit, run BH not HS on everything this tier except possibly xavius.

  9. #10969
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Sepelio View Post
    Sims are shit, run BH not HS on everything this tier except possibly xavius.
    Sims are not shit if you know how to read them. Unfortunately, many people don't. The difference between Holy Shield and Blessed Hammer is mostly in the single digit percentages. To be a bit more clear than above: if you talk in terms of min-maxing then Holy Shield is crap. For everyone else it doesn't matter too much because they likely play in groups where other things make or break the boss kill, like movement for example.

  10. #10970
    In terms of min maxing it is crap, so yea, it is shit, and sims usually are shit, its not a matter of being able to adequately read them, its the simple fact that the majority of them are done incorrectly, the rotation and priority is done incorrectly so on so forth. Grayhound has on multiple occasions had to adjust his sims when people point out to him aspects of it that are incorrect.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Not to mention - HS being ahead with sometimes as little as 5000 mastery, seeing as you should be avoiding mastery like the plague to go Haste/Vers, thats hardly a little, mastery is horrendously bad, you don't need any with current consecration+3 traits - More DR on it is entirely irrelevant when you're never dropping below 90% with it up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Unless i'm mistaken, the weights and values of current tank sims work on the premise of what will give you the most overall mitigation value i.e the least damage taken, which a ton of people seem to think is relevant, when in reality that metric is worth absolutely nothing. The aim for tanking is do whatever gives you the highest chance of survival, mastery is so far detached from that in 99% of scenarios, smoothing will always trump overall mitigation.

  11. #10971
    Deleted
    The point of simulations is to more compare things than to get absolute truths (which you won't). You can never program a simulation to mimic a real fight perfectly. You can, however, compare two different talents or items under identical conditions. You can check what changes if you have more of one stat or more of another. That is the true value of sims. You'll never get two identical raid fights, but you can get pretty close to identical conditions if you can average over 100000 simplified fights. You'll stile require a good amount of explanation and interpretation to read the results correctly, which includes knowledge of the class and fight mechanics. You'll never going to spot something like a 3% advantage of a certain talent or stat on your own, that's simply not going to happen.

    The "as little as" was referring to the question of how much mastery is required for HS to pull ahead. I was simply pointing out that, defensively, it can pull ahead even without stacking mastery. That's not to say that anyone should stack it, in fact I explicitly adivised against it and gave my reasons (weak with BH).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sepelio View Post
    Unless i'm mistaken, the weights and values of current tank sims work on the premise of what will give you the most overall mitigation value i.e the least damage taken, which a ton of people seem to think is relevant, when in reality that metric is worth absolutely nothing. The aim for tanking is do whatever gives you the highest chance of survival, mastery is so far detached from that in 99% of scenarios, smoothing will always trump overall mitigation.
    Actually, simulations are designed to detect "spikyness" rather than simple damage taken. The scaling is done for TMI, which is explained here. It accounts for single large spikes as well as multiple smaller ones. The basic assumption is that large spikes are a lot more dangerous than smaller spikes and consequently large spikes will have a much larger impact on the value than smaller spikes.. The smoother the damage intake the lower TMI, even if the overall damage taken is equal or greater. So there is a bit more going on than just scaling for damage taken.

    However, there is one major flaw that simulations have: the simmed paladins react to damage rather than preparing for it. Basically, they're bad tanks. In the long run this somewhat evens out by giving them a higher TMI than a skilled player would have, but at least the value will be consistent over many simulations. When looking at stat weights this needs to be kept in mind! If a boss has a nuke spell every 20 or so seconds that does one million damage, it might line up with an unmitigated hit or two, producing an enormous spike. Every remotely smart tank will save a charge of SotR for that specific moment and never eat the full million. The simulated tanks might eat it, think "oh shit, that hit hard, I should do something!" and then use SotR, reducing subsequent damage to be healed back up.

    So mitigation is still measured, just not when it matters most. Here's where I'd like your opinion, as you seem naturally sceptical of simulations but know how palatanking works. Knowing this behavior, would you say that this should result in an underestimation of the value of mastery in simulations? My thought is basically that while a player knows (or should know) when damage is coming and can (or should) prepare for it by using SotR ahead of time, the simulation can not. We can actively benefit from stronger mitigation by using it at the right time while the simulated paladins have to either "hope" that it's up when they need it most or use it afterward to let the healing catch up. This should end up favoring haste, because that's the stat that simply increases the chance of randomly getting SotR right.

    Of course, if you tank in an environment where tank damage is heavy all the time, like mythic progress, then you want as much uptime as possible even it it means a weaker SotR, no discussion there. I'm not trying to find out whether mastery is better than haste, just if it's really that terrible. Sure, when you have the choice, you'll always go for the better stat, but this might be relevant when considering a lower level item with haste vs. a higher level item with mastery.
    Last edited by mmoc4148e87d80; 2016-09-23 at 03:02 PM.

  12. #10972
    I wonder if there's a way to make a "best case" sim, in which the sim is casting SotR perfectly intelligently. I'm not totally familiar with how exactly each individual iteration works, but it has to be possible to retroactively apply SotR reduction, or to have no sotr buffs cast throughout a fight and then to go back and split the fight into 3s buckets and see which have the highest damage and apply the SotR reductions there.

    If you could have a completely dumb and a completely smart solution, you'd basically have bounding on what the class is capable of, which gets us a little closer to a perfect understanding. On the high end, there may exist a cap for haste that we just don't know about. IE. there may be a haste level where if you're able have sotr to mitigate every big hit, there may be another secondary that smooths around those already mitigated big hits better.

    At the very least, it'd be interesting to see.

  13. #10973
    The biggest problem of Prot paladin is that our HP is too fucking low ... why the hell do we not have the 30% HP buff?

  14. #10974
    If we got a 30% hp buff we'd be gamebreakingly OP. As it is, the armor buff we get at sub 40% extends our EHP into the stratosphere, and that EHP scales tremendously well with stam too. I've never loved being a low HP tank, but it would definitely break this class if we got that.

  15. #10975
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    There is a bloating of cooldowns and active abilities (like keeping SotR on and healing yourself) that Prot needs to juggle while not ruining a fight. Not saying it's unmanageable, but it's needless in my opinion. Some of those stuff could be baked into the passives instead. Why would you expect a tank to act like a cooldown machine while he already has a responsibility like not wiping the whole team? Can't understand the reasoning behind this. I wish they had spent a bit more time for tuning Ret instead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonuts View Post
    Pretty sad when being deathgripped is my most reliable gap closer! THAT is some BS too.

  16. #10976
    Quote Originally Posted by Veyloris View Post
    If we got a 30% hp buff we'd be gamebreakingly OP. As it is, the armor buff we get at sub 40% extends our EHP into the stratosphere, and that EHP scales tremendously well with stam too. I've never loved being a low HP tank, but it would definitely break this class if we got that.
    How much equivalent damage mitigation approximately is the armor buff we get below 40%? 8% I guess? I'd rather have the 30% HP buff instead.

  17. #10977
    Quote Originally Posted by woodknight View Post
    How much equivalent damage mitigation approximately is the armor buff we get below 40%? 8% I guess? I'd rather have the 30% HP buff instead.
    30% armor increases TTL by 30%. So 3 points in Faith's Armor increases EH by 13.33%, while also decreasing the amount of external healing we need.

    I mean sure, I'd rather have +30% health too. As long as we're making requests, I might rather have +75% health. And it would be cool if AS could bounce infinitely between enemies as long as they stayed close to each other. Yeah. That would be sick.

    But as it stands, we're certainly not weak tanks, and Faith's Armor certainly isn't a weak trait. Our low health pool is one of our defining weaknesses as tanks, and we more than make up for it with our.numerous strengths.

  18. #10978
    Quote Originally Posted by Vuagnon View Post
    There is a bloating of cooldowns and active abilities (like keeping SotR on and healing yourself) that Prot needs to juggle while not ruining a fight. Not saying it's unmanageable, but it's needless in my opinion. Some of those stuff could be baked into the passives instead. Why would you expect a tank to act like a cooldown machine while he already has a responsibility like not wiping the whole team? Can't understand the reasoning behind this. I wish they had spent a bit more time for tuning Ret instead.
    This comment kinda gave me cancer. Why do you want this class simplified further? Play a different class. Do you want to just want to be a warrior and have 1 button you constantly push to stop you from dying? That's just boring gameplay. We have a fairly engaging kit with requires actual decision making.

  19. #10979
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Veyloris View Post
    This comment kinda gave me cancer. Why do you want this class simplified further? Play a different class. Do you want to just want to be a warrior and have 1 button you constantly push to stop you from dying? That's just boring gameplay. We have a fairly engaging kit with requires actual decision making.
    True, had to play enough of my blood DK during alt runs to really appreciate the abundance of defensive CDs on my paladin.

  20. #10980
    Titan Gallahadd's Avatar
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    Well, the latest round of class tuning has left us untouched. This is probably a good thing, because I can't really see us getting buffed

    I think our best hope is to escape this patch untouched, then be happy with the talent changes coming in 7.1
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