Tulsa Polic Shoot Unarmed Black Man with Hands Up.

[Orbitus]

The CNN story says he was ignoring commands, or do you think she told him to march back this his vehicle? Please be more reasonable in your arguments.

We don't know if she ordered him back to his vehicle. They don't have cameras with microphones on, something needed for EVERY police officer. We just know that he had his hands up walking back to his SUV where he put them on the side of the vehicle.

[Themius]

if they wouldn't run they wouldn't have unfavorable encounters with police.

You should be focussing on the issue that they feel the need to run even when innocent because the atmosphere is unfavorable.

[Wilian]

Fucking third world countries and their barbaric acts.

[satimy]

What happened before the video? His car is pulled over in the middle of the road.....

[Chrysia]

What happened before the video? His car is pulled over in the middle of the road.....

His vehicle apparently stalled.

[the game]

You should be focussing on the issue that they feel the need to run even when innocent because the atmosphere is unfavorable.

If they're innocent they have nothing to worry about. Just cooperate with the officer. Show them respect and they'll show you respect. It goes both ways. I can't tell you how many black people are in my town and none of them have gotten shot by cops.

[Chrysia]

If they're innocent they have nothing to worry about. Just cooperate with the officer. Show them respect and they'll show you respect. It goes both ways. I can't tell you how many black people are in my town and none of them have gotten shot by cops.

None of what you wrote is universally applicable.

[Polyxo]

There's a whole lot of suburban white guyism going on in this thread.

[Mistame]

Are you denying that it's plausible that Shelby intentionally turned off her dash cam and that she was possibly lying about the whole intial run-in with Crutcher?

Of course not. But I'm also not claiming that he followed orders when there was no dash cam footage.

I mean we do have reports that say that Crutcher was never following police commands and yet we later found out that was a lie. Talk about being purposely obtuse.

I saw no reports that claim he "never" followed orders. Only that he didn't until the other cops showed up, then he put his arms up and started to walk away. It's not know for certain whether or not he was ignoring them as he walked away or he was ordered to his vehicle. So sorry, that "purposely obtuse" doesn't really fit.

His vehicle apparently stalled.

The 911 caller(s) said his vehicle was still running after he got out.

There's a whole lot of suburban white guyism going on in this thread.

Good thing you're here to keep the racists in check.

[Captain N]

Of course not. But I'm also not claiming that he followed orders when there was no dash cam footage.



I saw no reports that claim he "never" followed orders. Only that he didn't until the other cops showed up, then he put his arms up and started to walk away. It's not know for certain whether or not he was ignoring them as he walked away or he was ordered to his vehicle. So sorry, that "purposely obtuse" doesn't really fit.



The 911 caller(s) said his vehicle was still running after he got out.



Good thing you're here to keep the racists in check.

Well here was the Original AP Story corrected where the police spokeswoman claims that Crutcher was never following police orders:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/26bb1...ack-man-street

"He refused to follow commands given by the officers," MacKenzie said. "They continued to talk to him, he continued not to listen and follow any commands."

We know this to be false as video evidence turned up showing Crutcher with his hands up.

That article was linked twice by me about MacKenize making such claims. Claims that someone would make without knowing that there was video evidence to the contrary.

Shelby even reinforces that by way of her lawyer when she claims that Crutcher was still disobeying orders before she shot him. So basically we have the police playing "Not Our Fault" when the whole initial report was bullshit that was later contradicted by their very own cameras.

[RickJamesLich]

Well here was the Original AP Story corrected where the police spokeswoman claims that Crutcher was never following police orders:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/26bb1...ack-man-street

"He refused to follow commands given by the officers," MacKenzie said. "They continued to talk to him, he continued not to listen and follow any commands."

We know this to be false as video evidence turned up showing Crutcher with his hands up.

That article was linked twice by me about MacKenize making such claims. Claims that someone would make without knowing that there was video evidence to the contrary.

Shelby even reinforces that by way of her lawyer when she claims that Crutcher was still disobeying orders before she shot him. So basically we have the police playing "Not Our Fault" when the whole initial report was bullshit that was later contradicted by their very own cameras.

So wait, you think when the guy walked towards his car and was putting his hands on it, that he was complying?

[Captain N]

So wait, you think when the guy walked towards his car and was putting his hands on it, that he was complying?

Do you have evidence to the contrary? As has been quoted numerous times the only non-compliance we have is Shelby claiming that Crutcher was not showing his hands. This is 2 minutes before Tyler and the helicopter show up....which the initial reports from Janine MacKenzie claim that orders were not being followed at all. After their arrival we see the compliance of the shown hands -- Unless you can show me where someone makes the claim that Crutcher was not to return to his vehicle there really is just speculation on your part.

Based on a strangely turned off dash cam from Shelby and the fact MacKenzie's statement were an outright lie based on video evidence I'm more inclined to believe that Crutcher was obeying at least a majority of the commands given to him.

[Mistame]

We know this to be false as video evidence turned up showing Crutcher with his hands up.

You understand that the word "never" has different implications than what you linked and quoted, right? It's neither present nor implied in what you quoted.

I'm trying to figure out how you think him raising his hands automatically means he was following their instructions. He put his hands up, without instruction mind you, and walked toward his vehicle, counter to her tell him multiple times to stop. Even if she had told him to put his hands in the air, he still "refused to follow orders" by continuing to walk toward his vehicle after being instructed to stop.

[Captain N]

You understand that the word "never" has different implications than what you linked and quoted, right? It's neither present nor implied in what you quoted.

I'm trying to figure out how you think him raising his hands automatically means he was following their instructions. He put his hands up, without instruction mind you, and walked toward his vehicle, counter to her tell him multiple times to stop. Even if she had told him to put his hands in the air, he still "refused to follow orders" by continuing to walk toward his vehicle after being instructed to stop.

And I keep asking you to show me where that is documented. You have no evidence to back up your claims. All you have is Shelby's claim that he was being non-compliant...nothing else.

[Mistame]

And I keep asking you to show me where that is documented. You have no evidence to back up your claims. All you have is Shelby's claim that he was being non-compliant...nothing else.

In the chopper video, the officer states that his hands were up but he was not listening to orders. Shelby's statement claims that she told him repeatedly to stop (walking toward his vehicle). There is no logical reason for her to command him back to his vehicle after deciding to arrest him for suspicion of being under the influence, which is why she drew her weapon (he was acting erratic).

Questioning her statements is fine. But you also have to question the family's lawyer, who claimed he was only in the area because his vehicle "stalled". The 911 calls and the officer statements say that the vehicle was still running. There's no way he could know that the vehicle was stalled.

I'm not saying either case it true because we don't know. But you seem to be trying to make an argument that doesn't exist. What, do you think she ordered him to his vehicle so she could shoot him? Maybe that's why the other cops were called in, too. To help obscure the dash cam video of one of the officers she was calling to the scene? That's pretty insane planning right there. Hell, maybe she ordered him around his vehicle so she could throw a vial of PCP into his car. And for gits and shiggles, she probably sabotaged his vehicle and hired a couple of people to dial 911.

[Thetruth1400]

Title of the article (and thread) is misleading. He did not have his hands up when he was shot and from the chopper footage, seems to be reaching into his SUV. There also seems to be something at his feet after he fell that could be a firearm. The video's a bit blurry, though, so it's hard to tell. If he was unarmed and not reaching into the vehicle as it appears, he should have been tasered. But go for a weapon, you've earned your lead.

Agreed. That something at his feet is more than likely a cell phone, wallet, or keys though, not a gun.

He was a big boy. And the first officer was a woman. It's common (and logical) for multiple officers to be present at any give crime scene.



The first officer, as I mentioned, was a woman. She was probably scared shitless. He was a big guy and if she missed, the taser malfunctioned or had little effect, her life would be in peril.

But there isn't enough info to go on quite yet.

It should be common practice for at least two officers at every scene. Is it all over though? Not sure on that.

That aside, if you sign up to be a police officer, you better be able to do your job with cold, analytical determination. Sorry, but if she's "Just a woman scared shitless" she doesn't deserve to be carrying a weapon that can cause lethal damage the second she gets spooked. The same goes for any officer. Yes, snap decisions need to be made sometimes but this doesn't really look like the case.

We don't really know much yet, so I won't really pass judgment. If the guy was non compliant, reaching into his waste band / inside the car when they had told him not to, then yeah, he was a potential threat and sadly, he chose to not comply. If the cop pulled the trigger when there really wasn't a threat, his ass should be in jail for murder.

I'm about as pro cop as can be, but our cops need to start going to their non lethal options as quick as they do the lethal ones. The second someone doesn't comply, their ass needs to be on the ground twitching from a taser shot. Non compliance needs to start being met with non lethal force as the default go to. Taser them, handcuff them, haul them off to the station. Maybe next time they'll be more compliant.

[Jinpachi]

It's the footage released by the police dude, after admitting it looks kind of bad your going out of your way to call it a fabricated footage which again is released by the police department.

How does this fit in your logic where the police department is going to edit a video to make themselves look bad.

why release a video to add more fuel to the already hot fire? especially when there's so much that isnt clear in it. cops need to stop shooting first, and people need to start complying with their fucking orders.

[Mistame]

cops need to stop shooting first, and people need to start complying with their fucking orders.

Agreed. As Thetruth100 mentioned, taser should be the default go-to if no firearm is visible.

[Wells]

Agreed. As Thetruth100 mentioned, taser should be the default go-to if no firearm is visible.

And if a firearm is visible then go to a gun?

[RickJamesLich]

Do you have evidence to the contrary? As has been quoted numerous times the only non-compliance we have is Shelby claiming that Crutcher was not showing his hands. This is 2 minutes before Tyler and the helicopter show up....which the initial reports from Janine MacKenzie claim that orders were not being followed at all. After their arrival we see the compliance of the shown hands -- Unless you can show me where someone makes the claim that Crutcher was not to return to his vehicle there really is just speculation on your part.

Based on a strangely turned off dash cam from Shelby and the fact MacKenzie's statement were an outright lie based on video evidence I'm more inclined to believe that Crutcher was obeying at least a majority of the commands given to him.

Generally if you arrest someone, you don't tell them to walk away or walk towards their car. That would suggest that the guy was not being compliant by itself.

As for the officer's only complaint being that he didn't show his hands, this report from ABC pretty much says otherwise:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-polic...ry?id=42243843

It claims she ordered him to stop, among other things. I'm figuring the guy being on PCP probably has a lot to do with him being non-compliant here. So in that sense the guy is not being compliant, even if he did have his hands up temporarily.