Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Sturmbringe]

They need to make MC and BWL harder, add better gearing for specs like balance druid etc.

No, that would be a Fun Server not a Classic server. If you want to play on a Fun Server go right ahead.

MC is easy because you are doing it with 1.12 talents, and because you are doing it with enhanced gear. In patch 1.11 if memory servers, Blizzard added a series of powerful gear to help people close the gap for raiding. You are using this same OP gear that did not exist in earlier MC and BWL patches and you find MC and BWL "easy".

[Deleted]

Exactly. MC starting to be easy in the 1.9 patch to 1.12. 1.1 to 1.6 whas hard as fuck.

[Deleted]

Vanilla wasn't hard because of skill, it was hard because you needed 40 players to cooperate, because you needed to get very specific gear (like fire res for Rag), grinding, etc. The actual tactics of the fights are laughably easy when compared to modern-day raid encounters. Mages/paladins spam dispelling people and not standing in the fire.. oooooo, scary. I've played Mario levels that are of higher difficulty

[Sarevokcz]

Vanilla wasn't hard because of skill, it was hard because you needed 40 players to cooperate, because you needed to get very specific gear (like fire res for Rag), grinding, etc. The actual tactics of the fights are laughably easy when compared to modern-day raid encounters. Mages/paladins spam dispelling people and not standing in the fire.. oooooo, scary. I've played Mario levels that are of higher difficulty

hey, maybe we could get the old addons back, too! like decursive in its orginal form, where you just mashed a button and it automatically switched targets and dispelled them. We couldnt kill Lucifron the first week after they made the changes to disallow addons like this since our healers were just flat out terrible and clicking raidframes in CT_RA was too much of complicated chore... altho I wish DBM stuck to its original name Vendetta...

[Deleted]

The problem is to set the "difficultie" just for the mechanics, that is not fair, cause not only WoW, for example Everquest bosses have almost no mechanics but they were pretty hard.

Mechanics are important, but are not the only difficultie to be honest.

[Eleccybubb]

hey, maybe we could get the old addons back, too! like decursive in its orginal form, where you just mashed a button and it automatically switched targets and dispelled them. We couldnt kill Lucifron the first week after they made the changes to disallow addons like this since our healers were just flat out terrible and clicking raidframes in CT_RA was too much of complicated chore... altho I wish DBM stuck to its original name Vendetta...

Well no. If it was disabled in vanilla then it stays disabled. No quality of life changes to make it easier. You get what vanilla was and if Blizz broke addons during vanilla then they stay broken. That's like asking for reagents or ammo to be removed on a vanilla server or LFR to be added. You accept the quality of life you had back then.

[Vineri]

That's not the statement being made. The one that is critical to Vanilla Servers happening is always going to boil down to making a profit. When private server populations are brought up to justify a reason to have official Vanilla servers, the immediate criticism is going to be that these servers are free. Private server populations are not indicative of an official server business model.

The F2P factor heavily complicates the situation, and is itself a low-risk incentive to play. When factoring in a subscription for Vanilla exclusively, things get complicated. Ideally, people will sub for both and play each server equally. But the risk to Blizzard is that some people will unsub regular WoW to sub for Vanilla, which only shifts their source of income rather than generate it. There is also the risk that private server population numbers were skewed with a high influx of 'casuals' who aren't completely invested in long-term play, rendering a subscription model inefficient.

This risk factor is why it's relevant to point out that Private servers are free.

As for 'everyone who plays, wants to play for free', that's a subjective exaggeration that shouldn't even bother being addressed. Blanket statements like that aren't even worth the time to talk about, wouldn't you agree?

That was the exact statement that was made, which justifies my response. Original Post was:

Yeah suuuure they would. They didnt pay with the illegsl serrver now..did they? So why would they pay now?

Credibility. They have none.

Purple: In the posters context, "They" (above) was implied to include Everyone using private servers. It's understanding is not subjective, and my response was to a hostile post, in which a stereotype was being formed between private servers and folks not paying anything.

Private servers want to remain free, so there are no disputes between governments, moving money, and paying taxes. They will not accept payments, so there is not an option to pay.

I would love to agree with you, but I think the other poster was nasty enough to talk about. So, I don't agree with you. Sorry!

[slaise1]

I really wonder how they would do with the patches when they release Legacy servers. It feels like a logistical nightmare to follow every little hotfix

[Deleted]

I really wonder how they would do with the patches when they release Legacy servers. It feels like a logistical nightmare to follow every little hotfix

That's a GREAT question.

I think the idea will be kinda Nostalrius did, they put 1.12 in play, and every X time they implement something new (raid, dungeon, etc...). But starting with 1.0 and then 1.1, etc...through X time can be a good idea but hard to implement...

My personal thoughts, i think this is BY FAR the best question in the post. Good one.

[Zequill]

I really wonder how they would do with the patches when they release Legacy servers. It feels like a logistical nightmare to follow every little hotfix

Like every progression legacy server do? No patch since the server is already at the last version, just release the content of said patch at a predetermined pace.

[slaise1]

Like every progression legacy server do? No patch since the server is already at the last version, just release the content of said patch at a predetermined pace.

The problem of doing it the way Nost did is that raids and instances becomes easier than it should be with late game talents.

[Hrishi]

I skimmed through some of the thread, and reading this thread really makes me sad. I've been away from WoW for quite a long time, nearly 5 years now. If it wasn't for Nostalrius, I wouldn't have ever gotten back in. While I am still extremely hopeful for legacy servers, I wonder if Blizzard realizes that there were plenty of people, like me, who would have never even looked at Legion without getting the WoW itch thanks to Nostalrius.

Secondly, while I am sympathetic to the argument that Vanilla was not the best thing ever to everybody, it is incredibly saddening to read so many petty comments on this forum. I made a bunch of new friends and raided all the content together, up to BWL and ZG, and still talk to them long after the server has shut down. I haven't had quite the social experience like this in many years of playing MMORPGs. I was really looking forward to continuing the adventure into AQ and Naxx, but then it got taken away.

I experimented and played a bunch of weird specs while doing all the raids. Did you know you can make a pretty sweet pure Arcane Mage and have it clear everything with decent DPS? How about a Paladin MT? How about a Smite Priest? Sure, they weren't optimal, but they were incredibly fun to do and we had a blast coming up with increasingly idiotic specs to try. We made spreadsheets and calcs to support these crazy specs and loved every minute of it. PM me about it if anybody's curious!

This fun went well beyond raiding. I am a lot busier with life now than I used to be, what with a full time job and being an adult and everything. It took me a lot of time to get to 60, get raid-ready and do everything I needed to. It was incredibly refreshing to not rush headlong into the raid treadmill. It was great coming home from work one day, heading into Alterac Valley and seeing the same game going on as the one when I left for work.

I would hope that people aren't so petty that they'd rather see somebody else's fun taken away simply because it doesn't line up to what they consider is correct. I am glad that people enjoy the current version of WoW. I wish for nothing but good things to come. Similarly, please understand that there are many who wish to have a good time playing the game they enjoyed.

I do hope we will hear something about Legacy servers at Blizzcon, but seeing their long silence on the matter I'm not really hopeful. I suppose I should be spending less time playing games anyway...

[Deficineiron]

The problem of doing it the way Nost did is that raids and instances becomes easier than it should be with late game talents.

given the effort blizz would need to go through to make new metadata, I would think retuning mc and bwl to properly reflect later-game talents wouldn't be a big deal, in relative terms.

A more significant issue would be what has happened on PS's with classic - pvp honor system. Premade AV skipping pvp and just doing the pve objectives as most efficient honor farm, etc. A real restructuring of classic honor system/rewards would be needed to short-circuit this. Possibly just make the weapons honor-point-based and only give ranks for the ladder system. no solution is perfect but the honor farm premades might well be an issue.

any changes, even desperately needed ones, may be viewed as opening pandora's box, of course. Why not use a 3.4.x engine and just back out the relevant 61+ talents/zones etc? Could keep achievements and arena. As this may illustrate, making 'needed' changes is definitely a slippery slope.

[slaise1]

I skimmed through some of the thread, and reading this thread really makes me sad. I've been away from WoW for quite a long time, nearly 5 years now. If it wasn't for Nostalrius, I wouldn't have ever gotten back in. While I am still extremely hopeful for legacy servers, I wonder if Blizzard realizes that there were plenty of people, like me, who would have never even looked at Legion without getting the WoW itch thanks to Nostalrius.

Secondly, while I am sympathetic to the argument that Vanilla was not the best thing ever to everybody, it is incredibly saddening to read so many petty comments on this forum. I made a bunch of new friends and raided all the content together, up to BWL and ZG, and still talk to them long after the server has shut down. I haven't had quite the social experience like this in many years of playing MMORPGs. I was really looking forward to continuing the adventure into AQ and Naxx, but then it got taken away.

I experimented and played a bunch of weird specs while doing all the raids. Did you know you can make a pretty sweet pure Arcane Mage and have it clear everything with decent DPS? How about a Paladin MT? How about a Smite Priest? Sure, they weren't optimal, but they were incredibly fun to do and we had a blast coming up with increasingly idiotic specs to try. We made spreadsheets and calcs to support these crazy specs and loved every minute of it. PM me about it if anybody's curious!

This fun went well beyond raiding. I am a lot busier with life now than I used to be, what with a full time job and being an adult and everything. It took me a lot of time to get to 60, get raid-ready and do everything I needed to. It was incredibly refreshing to not rush headlong into the raid treadmill. It was great coming home from work one day, heading into Alterac Valley and seeing the same game going on as the one when I left for work.

I would hope that people aren't so petty that they'd rather see somebody else's fun taken away simply because it doesn't line up to what they consider is correct. I am glad that people enjoy the current version of WoW. I wish for nothing but good things to come. Similarly, please understand that there are many who wish to have a good time playing the game they enjoyed.

I do hope we will hear something about Legacy servers at Blizzcon, but seeing their long silence on the matter I'm not really hopeful. I suppose I should be spending less time playing games anyway...

Your comment made me happy and sad at the same time. Great piece of writing.

[Vash The Stampede]

Secondly, while I am sympathetic to the argument that Vanilla was not the best thing ever to everybody, it is incredibly saddening to read so many petty comments on this forum. I made a bunch of new friends and raided all the content together, up to BWL and ZG, and still talk to them long after the server has shut down. I haven't had quite the social experience like this in many years of playing MMORPGs. I was really looking forward to continuing the adventure into AQ and Naxx, but then it got taken away.

You tend to work with people when there's a challenge that's presented to you. Where today's WoW is more of time put in than effort.

I would hope that people aren't so petty that they'd rather see somebody else's fun taken away simply because it doesn't line up to what they consider is correct. I am glad that people enjoy the current version of WoW. I wish for nothing but good things to come. Similarly, please understand that there are many who wish to have a good time playing the game they enjoyed.

It should also be noted that we paid for vanilla WoW, and would like to enjoy that experience. I physically own the game, but can't play it cause I we're now up to WoW 7.0.

There's also the legality of hosting a WoW server. I don't think Nostalrius was using stolen or leaked software, so they're in the clear there. They also weren't profiting, so nothing wrong there. The only real issue is distributing the client, cause not everyone still has their Vanilla WoW CDs from years ago. I do, but I don't expect everyone to still have the Vanilla WoW installer. So the only illegal thing Nostalrius was doing was distributing the client. While Blizzard has a EULA against modifying the client and logging onto emulated servers,

Pretty much the EULA is what makes Nostalrius illegal, and I don't think that will hold water in court. Of course who wants to fight Blizzard in court and deal with court fees for something you do as a hobby for free? Might explain why Blizzard hasn't gone after the hundreds of other private servers. Nostalrius was the loudest and most successful of them all. The shutdown of Nostalrius has left a negative opinion towards Blizzard as well.

I do hope we will hear something about Legacy servers at Blizzcon, but seeing their long silence on the matter I'm not really hopeful. I suppose I should be spending less time playing games anyway...

Blizzard would love nothing more than to have this issue fade away. I'm surprised this thread is still going, considering Nostalrius has been offline for a while now.

[Gadzooks]

I do hope we will hear something about Legacy servers at Blizzcon, but seeing their long silence on the matter I'm not really hopeful. I suppose I should be spending less time playing games anyway...

There has NOT been nothing but silence on the matter. They made it abuntantly clear when they hosted the Nost devs at headquarters that they're well aware of the issue, they've discussed it at length internally, but cannot find a way to do it efficiently and have no budget for it. Stockton's final comment on it is consistent with the "No" they've been saying since TBC launched, but at least he said "That's something it would be cool to do, someday." Not "We ARE doing it", but "It's a cool idea". If you expect more than that, be prepared to be disapointed.

They will not mention legacy servers at Blizzcon, unless they intend to do them, and there's no sign that is underway - they'd need to hire for it, and there's no job listings for it. They may say 'No, we have no current plans for them" in a Q&A, is about as much as you can hope for, saying anything else would just create expectations in players, who would start demanding it because "You promised!"

Nobody is against fun, it's mostly stomping out urban legands, bizarre conspiracy theories and outright propaganda that is posted here and leaks out into other threads.

[Hrishi]

There has NOT been nothing but silence on the matter. They made it abuntantly clear when they hosted the Nost devs at headquarters that they're well aware of the issue, they've discussed it at length internally, but cannot find a way to do it efficiently and have no budget for it. Stockton's final comment on it is consistent with the "No" they've been saying since TBC launched, but at least he said "That's something it would be cool to do, someday." Not "We ARE doing it", but "It's a cool idea". If you expect more than that, be prepared to be disapointed.

They will not mention legacy servers at Blizzcon, unless they intend to do them, and there's no sign that is underway - they'd need to hire for it, and there's no job listings for it. They may say 'No, we have no current plans for them" in a Q&A, is about as much as you can hope for, saying anything else would just create expectations in players, who would start demanding it because "You promised!"

Nobody is against fun, it's mostly stomping out urban legands, bizarre conspiracy theories and outright propaganda that is posted here and leaks out into other threads.

Forgive me, but perhaps I've missed some of these comments? As far as I'm aware, there has been no official Blizzard communication regarding the matter ever since they posted the idea of "Pristine servers"? The only news I've gotten beyond that point has come from people like the Nostalrius devs and people like Mark Kern posting about it. If Blizzard actually released an official statement regarding any of the meetings they had, perhaps you'd be kind enough to link them to me?

[slaise1]

There has NOT been nothing but silence on the matter. They made it abuntantly clear when they hosted the Nost devs at headquarters that they're well aware of the issue, they've discussed it at length internally, but cannot find a way to do it efficiently and have no budget for it. Stockton's final comment on it is consistent with the "No" they've been saying since TBC launched, but at least he said "That's something it would be cool to do, someday." Not "We ARE doing it", but "It's a cool idea". If you expect more than that, be prepared to be disapointed.

They will not mention legacy servers at Blizzcon, unless they intend to do them, and there's no sign that is underway - they'd need to hire for it, and there's no job listings for it. They may say 'No, we have no current plans for them" in a Q&A, is about as much as you can hope for, saying anything else would just create expectations in players, who would start demanding it because "You promised!"

Nobody is against fun, it's mostly stomping out urban legands, bizarre conspiracy theories and outright propaganda that is posted here and leaks out into other threads.

I think I read somewhere if there were no sign of life from Blizzard releasing Legacy servers at Blizzcon, then Nost would release their data.

[Tackhisis]

I don't think Nostalrius was using stolen or leaked software, so they're in the clear there.

They were using stolen geodata, quest text, page texts, etc. etc.

[Deleted]

They were using stolen geodata, quest text, page texts, etc. etc.

quest text and stuff was, is and likely will always be clientside. They just run a protocol on their server that tries to imitate what a blizz server would send. Just like an emulator...
too bad that emulators are illeg... no wait they were proven legal two times by commercial products.... emulator you could buy... and included a bios of the console.

They just read what the client and blizz server were communitcating and wrote their own code that imitates that. it is their code. Just because they script certain npcs in the same location, which are supposed to act like they did on blizz-servers does not mean they stole it.
That thing is called MaNGOS and you can download a legitimate copy of it. The best working stuff is for wotlk because at that time the scene was the biggest - they have better analyzed what blizz servers actually do.

But yes, you actually need a database from vanilla for items and npcs and stuff, which as far as I know is usually not included in mangos.
You also often have to download a bios for a console from another party to run some emulators.
But both of those were easily accessible.

Many argue that that is illegal - to provide that proprietary code like a bios - or perhaps a database, but the court actually ruled the distribution of a bios legal.
Don't know from the top of my head if it was bleem or connectix' case which ruled that... or both? but yeah - legal, even if the urbanmyth of console-bios = illegal still lives to this day.

Just as an example the story of connectix' "Virtual Play Station":
Virtual Game Station released in 1999 on Mac OS for 50 bucks. It allowed you to insert a Playstation disc into your mac and play it emulated on that mac. (That was before the second playstation was released.)
Sony went to court, heavily supported by both Sega and Nintendo.
Sony won a temporary Injunction, making it illegal to sell the emulator. But Connectix won the courtcase. Connectix was in financial trouble because they could not sell their product for that duration and a court case is expensive. Sony straight out buys connectix and discontinues the Virtual Game Station shortly before the second playstation comes out.

Conclusion? emulation was ruled legal, but that courtbattle was too devastating so nobody wants to repeat that (but "bleem!" tried again, won again, went bankrupt again).
Big companies enforce that law through fear of courtbattles, but the law is actually not in their favor.