1. #1

    Kindling over Cinderstorm

    I have been going through the top fire mages on warcraftlogs and I noticed none of them are using cinderstorm on there heroic kills. Since so many of these fights have adds, I would have thought it would make sense to use cinderstorm for some extra AOE or is the extra combustion outway this in almost every fight. Keep in mind I was only looking at the top fire mage for each heroic boss so they might not be the norm, just trying to get peoples opinion. Also Living bomb seemed to quite under represented. Thanks for any info or tips.

  2. #2
    Tbh, even add heavy fight have a lot of single target and I understand why you would want kindling on most fights because of that. Cinderstorm is also not great when adds are spread all around like on Il'gynoth.

  3. #3
    Cinderstorm is really great if you can stay melee range, hitting every single cinder, or if you can reach lot of adds with them.
    On the other side, Kindling allow you to have more burst phases, which are good both for single target and for priority killing.
    That's why they're running kindling i guess
    Sorry for terrible english ^^

  4. #4
    Cinderstorm won't be all that useful until you learn the fights. Because it only remains competitive against kindling in single target if you use it on cooldown, and at least 5 cinders hitting every time. This can be quite difficult when you don't know the encounters yet and the tanks are just dragging the boss around trying to find a suitable position and what not.

    Also the other problem with cinderstorm is knowing how to aim it and the sweet spot where the cinders kinda converge in to use it at long range. If you can't aim it from far then you gotta move in close range and potentially messing things up. And you gotta angle yourself to make sure it passes through more than one target if it's a multi target fight.

    So yeah it's a very gimmicky spell to use in raids. Unlike dungeons where everything is clumped up making it easy to hit everything.

    As for living bomb, it might be because melee can blow up adds so quickly, it'd just be unnecessary pad dps, imo.
    Last edited by pkm; 2016-09-22 at 04:12 PM.

  5. #5
    How do you guys fit in Cinder? Just use it on CD then back to normal rotation? Seems like it would be a DPS loss to use it, but I've been trying to work with it.

  6. #6
    It all depends on fight length. If kindling lets you get in an extra combustion, it's usually worth it over CiS. If you get the same number of combustions anyway, kindling is pretty worthless. For example, in a 4 and a half minute fight, kindling is unlikely to give you a full fourth combustion but if there are adds you can probably get some good cleave damage from cinderstorm or even good single target damage. If you can get inside the enemy's hitbox you can also use cinderstorm to stack PI, which is nice.

  7. #7
    I have no issues hitting with all projectiles of CiS in raids. All bosses have huge models and are rarely moved by tanks (for melee purposes). But even a moving boss isn't too hard to hit with all projectiles.

    That being said I'm still testing Kindling vs CiS myself. But for me, CiS sims higher.

  8. #8
    cinderstorm does a whopping 2000 dps more on single target, it's not even worth the effort unless you have an add heavy fight

  9. #9
    Deleted
    Yes, Kindling is better for people, who can't use CiS properly.

  10. #10
    Kindling vs Cinderstorm depends heavily on the fight. It's not as simple as "this fight has adds, I should use Cinderstorm" or "I get an extra Combustion with Kindling" -- you need to pay attention to your Combustion timing.

    For example on Il'gynoth, Kindling can allow you to Combustion on the pull, then at 1m30s, and again at 3m during the heart phase. With Cinderstorm you'd likely end up wanting to hold Combustion for an entire minute while waiting for the heart phase, which is just terrible.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothrik View Post
    Kindling vs Cinderstorm depends heavily on the fight. It's not as simple as "this fight has adds, I should use Cinderstorm" or "I get an extra Combustion with Kindling" -- you need to pay attention to your Combustion timing.

    For example on Il'gynoth, Kindling can allow you to Combustion on the pull, then at 1m30s, and again at 3m during the heart phase. With Cinderstorm you'd likely end up wanting to hold Combustion for an entire minute while waiting for the heart phase, which is just terrible.
    Wriggling Sinew drops and you can forget, that Kindling exists and if you can position yourself you will do much more with CiS on Il'gynoth than with Kindling, but it is no longer that easy as a lot of people want to be.

  12. #12
    You essentially NEED to go CiS Once you get your BiS Trinket

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by shadycharacter1 View Post
    cinderstorm does a whopping 2000 dps more on single target, it's not even worth the effort unless you have an add heavy fight
    we are talkin about this in another thread as well.. i felt that CiS is even weaker due to the cast time. it will mess up your burn phase for maybe 2000dps blah.. with RoP and all the other stuff u need to jam into your very short burn its a waste of time

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Quetesh View Post
    Wriggling Sinew drops and you can forget, that Kindling exists and if you can position yourself you will do much more with CiS on Il'gynoth than with Kindling, but it is no longer that easy as a lot of people want to be.
    Are you sure that trinket is BiS? 700k damage every 2 mins seems very lackluster to me.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobstarrr View Post
    Are you sure that trinket is BiS? 700k damage every 2 mins seems very lackluster to me.
    It's much more than 700k damage. You want it to fire off when you have ROP+Combust up with 5 stacks of PI.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Lobstarrr View Post
    Are you sure that trinket is BiS? 700k damage every 2 mins seems very lackluster to me.
    700k? I don't know what your gear is like, but during Combustion+RoP my trinket can do over 2 million damage. 1-1.5 million with just RoP. The diffuclty I have is determining the optimal use of it so that I can compare it with the alternatives. Most would suggest to just go Cinderstorm so that Combustion is back on a 2 minute timer so it all lines up cleanly. But, as much of a hassle it is to time things with Kindling reduced timers, how punished you get when using Cinderstorm improperly along with how precisely on cooldown you need to use Rune/Flame On to line it up with 2 minute Combustion CD is a pain.

    Kindling for me is way more forgving and flexible so unless Cinderstorm and whatnot is just miles ahead that it's mandatory to compete, I won't be doing it.

  17. #17
    CiS = Cinderstorm?

    That's beyond moronic lol.

  18. #18
    Got a Wriggling Sinew last night and man CiS feels so bad. I know I have to get use to it but I honestly hate it.

    Throws off the timing for Phoenix flame charges and flame on.
    Can't change targets when the trinket is up.
    Have to constantly re position to aim CiS.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobstarrr View Post
    Are you sure that trinket is BiS? 700k damage every 2 mins seems very lackluster to me.
    this is just during withered army training but 4.27 mil

    Hi Sephurik

  19. #19
    Ah i completely forgot about how it might benefit from combustion and rune. Thanks guys!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Quetesh View Post
    Wriggling Sinew drops and you can forget, that Kindling exists
    Quote Originally Posted by Spitfiyah View Post
    You essentially NEED to go CiS Once you get your BiS Trinket
    This isn't really true at all, as far as I can tell.

    To test, I took the default T19P fire mage profile in simcraft and gave it a Wriggling Sinew (and a stat-stick int/crit trinket to keep any confounding influence down). For the APL, I had it use the Wriggling Sinew only when it would explode during RoP+Combustion. I simmed this profile with Kindling and with Cinderstorm then. Also, to further break down Cinderstorm, I made separate profiles for each different number of cinders that hit the target. The rest of the settings were the Simcraft default. Results:


    (0cinders is not even bothering to cast Cinderstorm single-target, even though you take the talent)

    As you can see, using Kindling with Wriggling Sinew is still very competitive. You can likely even further optimize the APL of the Kindling profile because, the way I have it now, it won't use Wriggling Sinew even if it's off CD and Combustion won't come back up before the boss dies, essentially wasting a usage of it.

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