Should I raid with a guild that uses Loot Council?

[Deleted]

No, because we're looking at loot distribution from different sides. You as someone who is getting it, me as someone distributing it. You, with your posts and distrust have proven to me that you care about getting loot, which is a huge red flag.

I care about optimizing the entire raid group and killing bosses, regardless of who gets the loot.

Note that I never once mentioned getting loot myself while you only talk about that. At the end of the day, no one whose primary motivator is loot will ever have a spot in my raid group. Loot is a means to an end, not the goal.

You don't know anything about my loot distribution experience or situation. Don't bother quoting me if you're directing your post at a windmill. When did I ever mention "getting loot myself"? Learn to read, kid.

[ElDoorO]

and no good guild would want someones whose primary worry is if they will get loot.

"and no good company wants someone whose primary concern is money" -- that's flat out silly. Of course it's politically incorrect to say that in an interview that yes, you're biggest concern is money. Loot is the reward for progress. Having managers/leaders hand out loot/bonuses to friends instead of people who earned it and you (and others) being ok with that speaks volumes.

This is the problem. People want fairness and the only way to force that is to use personal loot now. Only newbies have not been shafted by a loot council before. The more experienced people have seen it more than once or had it done to them more than once which is why they are reluctant to trust.

It's silly to imply, which is what you're doing, that loot is secondary or much lower down on the reward pile than anything else. The reason it's silly/stupid is because you can't progress without that loot. This means that if (for easy numbers) you have an iLvl 100 trinket. The other person has iLvl 200. the iLvl of the trinket is 213. Who should it go to? The one who needs it the most? The one who rolled the highest? The one whose best in slot it is?

The problem is councils rarely stick to a singular reward system and "bend" the rules for their friends. After a while your raid is mostly geared with 213 loot and you're barely hitting 150 but hey.. you downed those bosses, right? Except now you can't do anymore bosses because you need better loot because you can't keep up with the others.

This is the inherent flaw. This isn't to say all LC's do this -- but I've almost always seen guilds disband over things like this. It starts off fair.. then it slowly, ever so slowly, slides away from fairness. You might not see it yet because you're new. I get that - but it's very common. It won't take you long to see it and I hope you never get burned by it but you probably will one day. You'll probably PUG one day and forget to ask about loot.. something will drop you've been needing and .. it goes to their friend and not you because.. who are you? A nobody. You'll petition a GM... GM will say tough luck. You'll /gquit. People will ask... some will leave. They won't have enough to do 20mythic. Guild falls apart. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Or maybe you are that friend who benefits so you don't care. /shrug

[Korbynn]

Right. Loot Council will tell you that they don't want you in their guild if you're concerned about loot. That in itself already contradicts the system of Loot Council, as they're wanting total control over the loot drops.

They'll say that we like to implement optimization within the raid. What that means is that the good ole boys are 12 ilvl's above you, and the loot is going to them because they 'pull their weight'.

Hiding behind rhetoric goes both ways. Fair play is always recognizable.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

You too are making the claim it doesn't happen so where is your proof? What can't you see that it works both ways? Nice try though.

The original claim wasn't made by me. So Citation on your outlandish claims, so stop saying them.

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Exactly and for loot council to work the guild needs strong leadership but that isn't always the case. Yes, if ran right loot council works great but that isn't easy to do. To add in a level where the leadership has to be fair and balanced and have a good knowledge of all classes and specs is expecting a lot. And I have seen it work out great but I have also seen it fail. I have seen it fail after working for a long time if say the gm takes a break. It is a lot on the gm with loot council. And as this thread is all about the op is the new guy not knowing how it works in the new guild and we are pointing out to be wary.

The real issue here is the bad leadership, not loot council.

[xhisors]

The original claim wasn't made by me. So Citation on your outlandish claims, so stop saying them.

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The real issue here is the bad leadership, not loot council.

Except that loot council 9/10 times biased and dumb. There are much better systems out there and guilds who don't use them are just trying to take advantage of the system. Its not just me that agrees with this either.. but in my experience every guild that has it.. abuses that power with their tight group of 7-10 people. I've gone entire tiers with only getting 1 or 2 pieces of gear, of course I left those guilds after that.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Except that loot council 9/10 times biased and dumb. There are much better systems out there and guilds who don't use them are just trying to take advantage of the system. Its not just me that agrees with this either.. but in my experience every guild that has it.. abuses that power with their tight group of 7-10 people. I've gone entire tiers with only getting 1 or 2 pieces of gear, of course I left those guilds after that.

You'll need proof before you spout that bullshit.

[zephid]

I have been out of the raiding scene for years and from what I am reading personal loot seems like a better overall gearing option for entire guilds but on my servers the only guilds recruiting are all loot council based. I am wondering if the Inner circle buddy system will be prevalent and something I should just walk away from.

I joined this one guild recently since all 5 of the only mythic guilds recruiting all used loot council but has anyone had alot of good experiences with loot council or should I just cut my ties? I did notice that the officers were all grouped together doing mythic modes seeming to exclude other members but that is natural to want to group up with your closer knit friends so that has no bearing on this issue. Just seems ripe for abuse over personal loot or DKP.

No mythic raiding guild will use personal loot, it will either be some kind of DKP system or loot council. As with everything it can be abused, but you can be fairly certain it's not the case if the guild have existed for a while since guilds in which the officers abuse the system tend to be rather short lived.

[xhisors]

You'll need proof before you spout that bullshit.

Same to you? Prove they are not?

Oh right you can't other than your own experience. Move along and post something constructive.

[zechz]

Pretty good example here of why you shouldn't raid with guilds that use loot councils... unless you're part of the council, or you're undergeared relative to the rest of the raid.

The best guilds use loot council. If you aren't joining a high end progression based guild I can see avoiding loot council though.

[davesurfer]

The post of @NoobistTV-Metro is the best argument pro-LC. Do you really want people in your raid who are topmost concerned of their loot and driven by the fear of not getting enough? In my experience, these are the first people who die in the fire at literally every encounter.

Then don't let them raid. He said he wouldn't give them loot. Not giving someone loot because you do t like them is not pro-LC. I have raided with people I don't like and people who don't like me, but that doesn't impact loot distribution.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Same to you? Prove they are not?

Oh right you can't other than your own experience. Move along and post something constructive.

No, I don't have to prove a negative. Its YOUR job to prove YOUR claims.

[Steve French]

We have used loot council for 8 years.
If you are worried about abuse and not getting gear then don't raid.

If some one said this shit to me before they tried to join my guild they would never be considered for a single piece.

Yeah, and this is why people don't want loot council, you get some power tripping dbags that hoard the loot for the inner circle.

[xhisors]

No, I don't have to prove a negative. Its YOUR job to prove YOUR claims.

"I don't have to explain my reasoning because I say so but you have to because I say so". Logic. I have read this whole thread, all you have said is LC is fine with ZERO constructive reasoning and yet your shouting "prove it! prove it! prove it!" to everyone that thinks LC is trash or think another system performs better. I have stated my opinion, sorry you don't agree. You could have posted something constructive but you decided be salty to everyone.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

"I don't have to explain my reasoning because I say so but you have to because I say so". Logic. I have read this whole thread, all you have said is LC is fine with ZERO constructive reasoning and yet your shouting "prove it! prove it! prove it!" to everyone that thinks LC is trash or think another system performs better. I have stated my opinion, sorry you don't agree. You could have posted something constructive but you decided be salty to everyone.

I've explained my reasoning.

And your opinion isn't valid without proof. You guys keep using statistics without any type of real proof. 9/10 LC guilds fail? Prove it.

You also can't prove negatives, so again, I don't have to do that. YOU have to prove YOUR claims though.

[xhisors]

I've explained my reasoning.

And your opinion isn't valid without proof. You guys keep using statistics without any type of real proof. 9/10 LC guilds fail? Prove it.

You also can't prove negatives, so again, I don't have to do that. YOU have to prove YOUR claims though.

I mean with a topic thats as subjective and purely based on opinion as is LC bad. Yes our opinions are valid, with almost 12k posts you should be able to understand that.

My proof is my experience of being in more than 10 LC guilds that abused the system. Don't believe me or discredit me? I honestly don't care, its an opinion and other share my opinion. Have a good day.

[Kuruption]

All people want is fairness. Loot is important, contrary to what you may feel, for further progression.
I'm going to guess you're the kind that funnels loot to your friends even if it means shafting the other people who have more than earned it and have done far more than your friend.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Back when doing somewhat of a LC in Mythic BRF, I kept a spreadsheet of people who won items so I could make sure it was fair.

But you're just talking out of your ass at this point.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Loot Council is used, because despite the chance of corruption, any drama caused by LC, would merely be a drop in the ocean compared to the dramashitstorm you usually get from any DKP-based system.

Personal loot is not an option for any Mythic guild, for obvious reasons.

[Berengil]

All loot to personal loot, everywhere. No exceptions.

Mythic guilds will cry? They constitute such a small % of us all, their concerns are a fart in the wind.

[Korbynn]

No mythic raiding guild will use personal loot, it will either be some kind of DKP system or loot council. As with everything it can be abused, but you can be fairly certain it's not the case if the guild have existed for a while since guilds in which the officers abuse the system tend to be rather short lived.

I can honor that.

There are always exceptions.

[Sylv_]

If you become an integral member of the group, you tend to get loot.