What do we think about the incoming tuning?

[Dannyfalcon]

Upcoming Class Tuning
Just as a note, in case you missed his other tweets while being tied down on this one: we have a tuning pass that will come with next week's restarts.
From Devs

Do we think they might touch FR? Buff Fury?

[Celadir]

There is honestly no telling what will happen with the limited data they have to pull numbers from. FR would be the biggest target in terms of things they may be looking at, if I had to guess. As for Fury, they'll probably provide a "with better gear the numbers will develop into a much better state" answer and to their point warriors are known for running away and needing balancing when we start gaining enough stats of our choosing. My biggest worry is the things they haven't released yet for public knowledge concerning warrior balancing. I'm always uncomfortable not knowing what they're considering, but haven't published yet.

[BettyIsBest]

You're starting to hear more and more people say they are being sat for raids, feel like they are a drain on raids, don't bring much to raids outside of clearing trash.

When you have a significant portion of a player base saying they feel like a hindrance, there is a problem. I've been on the fence about how big a deal the increased damage taken is, but as people come out of raids and are stating they are taking almost as much damage as the tanks just from unavoidable raid wide damage, there is definitely a huge problem with the mechanic.

There are some key things that I think need to be changed:

-Remove the increased damage taken while enraged. While it sounds cool on paper, it is clearly becoming a reason to not bring a fury warrior to a raid, and makes them useless in PvP.

-Increase the damage on Furious Slash. Right not the ONLY reason we want to touch this button is for the crit buff to Bloodthirst, the damage does not hit hard enough. I think I've seen people mention that it's not even following the standard "off hand attacks deal half damage" it should be.

-Change Juggernaut entirely. Cool idea, only works in raids with long long LONNNNNGG execute phases. This does nothing everywhere else because things will never live long enough. And, as other people get more geared, execute times will be shorter, meaning our damage just goes down. Poor design. If you want to keep this tied to execute, why not change it to something that lets us use Execute outside of Execute range. Maybe after we cast Rampage we get a half cost execute. I dono, just spitballing. Just anything that doesn't rely on mobs living for a long time, it's counter intuitive to the game.


I wanted to add buffing Raging Blow damage, but I think the above three should be addressed first. They are what I found to be the biggest hindrance to game play.

[Anbokr]

As much as I'd love for them to tweak Fury's artifact, I think all of this tuning is going to be centered on pure base numbers (could be wrong here though).

Guessing for Arms (what I think they'll do):
-FR goes down to 30% (from 40%)
-Mortal strike damage reduced by 10%

I'm praying blizzard doesn't touch Arms' baseline abilities, but I don't give them much credit these days. They're going to look at how high arms is and just nerf some base abilities along with FR which will doom any non-FR build for possibly the entire expac, and then hurt PvP. Which they wouldn't mind doing cause arms is great in pvp right now but nerfing Arms' base abilities is the wrong way to solve both PvP and PvE. Nerf FR and adjust the stat template in PvP.

Fury (the dream):
-Bloodthirst, Raging Blow, and Execute damage increased by 15%
-Furious Slash damage increased by 20%
-Enrage now increases damage taken by 20% (Warpaint 10%)

That's my hope for Fury, but they probably won't be as generous. Wouldn't be surprised if it's just a 5% buff to Bloodthirst, Furious Slash, and Raging Blow.

In the future I want to see Enrage go down to something like 15% damage amplification baseline, and warpaint remade entirely to give 10% leech while enraged.

[Dug]

I hope other arms builds get slightly buffed so that FR isn't the go to. Bring Fury up and either remove or lower the damage taken stuff.

[orgonutil]

As much as I'd love for them to tweak Fury's artifact, I think all of this tuning is going to be centered on pure base numbers (could be wrong here though).

Guessing for Arms:
-FR goes down to 30% (from 40%)
-Mortal strike damage reduced by 10%

I'm praying blizzard doesn't touch Arms' baseline abilities, but I don't give them much credit these days. They're going to look at how high arms is and just nerf some base abilities along with FR which will doom any non-FR build for possibly the entire expac, and then hurt PvP. Which they wouldn't mind doing cause arms is great in pvp right now but nerfing Arms' base abilities is the wrong way to solve both PvP and PvE. Nerf FR and adjust the stat template in PvP.

Fury:
-Bloodthirst, Raging Blow, and Execute damage increased by 15%
-Furious Slash damage increased by 20%
-Enrage now increases damage taken by 20% (Warpaint 10%)

That's my hope for Fury, but they probably won't be as generous. Wouldn't be surprised if it's just a 5% buff to Bloodthirst, Furious Slash, and Raging Blow.

In the future I want to see Enrage go down to something like 15% damage amplification baseline, and warpaint remade entirely to give 10% leech while enraged.

"-Mortal strike damage reduced by 10% " - dont think that they will do this becouse it will nerf too non-FR arms specs.

- less damage taken in enrage it is a must go direction and juggernaut need more time on buff, less stacks and more damage per stack. I dont think they will touch rage of valarjar becouse it can buff our aoe

[Staubz]

if they decide to buff furious slash they really need to buff it, its just like a 10% baseline dmg the skill still gonna be shit imo

[Fourze]

I've been with my guild on our normal and heroic runs in Nightmare this week and honestly my damage taken hasn't been that much of a hindrance, usually the extra damage I've been taking, on where I actually double checked which I'll admit wasn't a lot, is maybe 100k or so more than everyone else in the raid - per hit, which BT, and thanks to some tert. stat luck, leech, mitigates. But my output is definately in the absolute low end. You just feel so worthless outside the burst windows, you know on pull it looks good, you burst all the way to the top - I peaked higher than our Hunters, Demon Hunters and so on - but then just plummeted like a rock because my cooldowns wore off.

Juggernaut can't keep up with something like Ursoc's charge during the last 20%, it's like; nice, I have 7 stacks aaaaand he just charged halfway into the room, and now my stacks are gone, unless you try to catch him with Double Time and Leap.

And giving some baseline leech inside Enrage would also help with the survivability, 5% and maybe have Battle Scars increasing it by a little more - or even flat out changing Battle Scars to giving us Leech during Enrage rather than extra health.

tl;dr

+20% base damage to core rotation (BT, Execute, FS, Rampage, RB)
Enraged Regen 1 Minute CD OR split into the WoD version with Die By The Sword as a separate cooldown
Longer duration on Juggernaut
Leech during Enrage either baseline or through Battle Scars

[ReD-EyeD]

Pretty sure they will buff Rend

[Anbokr]

"-Mortal strike damage reduced by 10% " - dont think that they will do this becouse it will nerf too non-FR arms specs.

Yeah I hope they don't but I don't have much confidence that they'll look anything beyond Arms is doing 50% more single target than most specs and react with a broad nerf over a targeted one dooming non-FR builds and cementing FR as king for PvE for the expac, but just giving it a smaller throne. For arms I'm just listing what I think they are likely to do, not what I want them to do.

Like you and everyone else, I hope they just nerf FR and call it a day. Buff other talents in 7.1.

[Jastall]

You're starting to hear more and more people say they are being sat for raids, feel like they are a drain on raids, don't bring much to raids outside of clearing trash.

When you have a significant portion of a player base saying they feel like a hindrance, there is a problem. I've been on the fence about how big a deal the increased damage taken is, but as people come out of raids and are stating they are taking almost as much damage as the tanks just from unavoidable raid wide damage, there is definitely a huge problem with the mechanic.

There are some key things that I think need to be changed:

-Remove the increased damage taken while enraged. While it sounds cool on paper, it is clearly becoming a reason to not bring a fury warrior to a raid, and makes them useless in PvP.

-Increase the damage on Furious Slash. Right not the ONLY reason we want to touch this button is for the crit buff to Bloodthirst, the damage does not hit hard enough. I think I've seen people mention that it's not even following the standard "off hand attacks deal half damage" it should be.

-Change Juggernaut entirely. Cool idea, only works in raids with long long LONNNNNGG execute phases. This does nothing everywhere else because things will never live long enough. And, as other people get more geared, execute times will be shorter, meaning our damage just goes down. Poor design. If you want to keep this tied to execute, why not change it to something that lets us use Execute outside of Execute range. Maybe after we cast Rampage we get a half cost execute. I dono, just spitballing. Just anything that doesn't rely on mobs living for a long time, it's counter intuitive to the game.


I wanted to add buffing Raging Blow damage, but I think the above three should be addressed first. They are what I found to be the biggest hindrance to game play.

That sounds like a good list of changes. I understand why Blizzard wouldn't buff BT and RB since they are also part of our AoE kit, but there is no reason for Furious Slash to hit like a wet noodle if it's going to be part of our ST rotation. Buffing Raging Blow could also work I suppose, but it already does about 30% of my damage on average, I'm not sure even more damage should be tied down to this ability. Instead Furious Slash should get a big boost.

I think Juggernaut is OK as a concept, it just needs number tweaks. Lower its absurd cap and make it last longer (12 seconds or so) so being out of melee range for 2 seconds or haivng bad luck doesn't completely destroy our execute phase. I do think tying so much of Fury's ST performance to the execute phase is a bit much, but admitedly being able to burn down a boss at 20% is fairly valuable all things considered so I'm OK with the concept of Juggernaut.

Arms will see FR nerfed; exactly by how much remains to be seen. I'd hope that Arm's baseline kit is untouched, I actually like the Overpower/Trauma playstyle, but the FR one is flatly superior I have no real reason to play it.

In my dreams, all three main warrior builds (Fury, OP/Trauma, FR) are brought to the upper middle of the pack, doing good damage while having niches; Fury's is AoE and execute phase, FR is superior ST focus (but not as dramatic as today obviously) and the Overpower build has room to add great cleave on top of doing decently by itself.

That's very probably not going to happen, and hope is the first step on the road to disapointment, but still.

[Montegomery]

I'd be pleasantly surprised if we saw any buff for Fury. I think at the moment we're too close to the middle of the pack to see much change.

[Archimtiros]

I'd be pleasantly surprised if we saw any buff for Fury. I think at the moment we're too close to the middle of the pack to see much change.

Not on pure single target, they're closer (though still slightly above) Frost DK range.

[Kaljurei]

My expectations are

-> Arms gets another FR nerf, probably by 10%.
-> Slam and WW gets buffed by around 20-30%, preferably with Slam getting the 30% buff and WW getting the 20% buff with proportionate tweaks to FoB.
-> Fury gets a significant damage buff across the board especially with respect to Juggernaut and BT/Rampage.
-> Enrage damage increase gets reduced(unlikely) or extra health plus health regeneration increase through BT and Artifact talents.

But of course realistically speaking only Arms gets nerfed and Fury gets either nothing or at best 5-10% buffs.

[Wazooty]

I don't really see how they can't nerf FR (along with other overperforming specs in general). A single talent (synergized with a couple others) shouldn't be make or break your dps entirely. Am I wrong in saying that the talents original intent was to simply burn off excess rage like good ol heroic strike?

I'm hopeful for a general arms buff and an FR nerf. I don't want our performance entirely dependent on such a playstyle and feel altering talent, but I don't want us to be crap when it's brought in line either. I just respec'd to FR after our guilds other dps warrior blew me away on the charts raiding, I was in the mix with the "properly tuned" classes and specs without it but that's doesn't look good what the other warrior is always in the top 3. While I WOULD like FR if it were used like heroic strike was, in its current state I'm hoping they fix it before we next raid.

[Varitok]

"Please send help"

Sincerely, A Frost DK

[mistahwilshire]

"Please send help"

Sincerely, A Frost DK

Still logging more Xavius kills than Survival Hunters. (none)

[Montegomery]

Not on pure single target, they're closer (though still slightly above) Frost DK range.

We're generally 5th or 6th from the bottom on a boss-by-boss basis looking at Warcraft Logs, but I think that's far enough up that we're probably not going to see much thrown our way. If you compare us to whichever class is 5th or 6th from the top the difference is only 10%. It's not an insignificant difference, but it's close enough to "balanced" that I'd be surprised to see any Fury changes this pass.

I mean, I'd absolutely love it if Juggernaut had some extra leeway, or if they allowed Fury to use Execute starting at 30%, or if proc rates for Fury of the Valarjar/Odyn's Champion were buffed (again in the latter's case) or any number of QoL changes that double as DPS increases. But I think Blizzard is most likely going to nerf Arms and call it a day.

[mysticx]

I don't really see how they can't nerf FR (along with other overperforming specs in general). A single talent (synergized with a couple others) shouldn't be make or break your dps entirely. Am I wrong in saying that the talents original intent was to simply burn off excess rage like good ol heroic strike?

I'm hopeful for a general arms buff and an FR nerf. I don't want our performance entirely dependent on such a playstyle and feel altering talent, but I don't want us to be crap when it's brought in line either.

This is my hope too, having one single talent be so strong (The leap from mediocre to top-tier DPS) removes any semblance of talent choice, maybe making FR stack twice instead of three times would be a decent option? (With buffs to the alternative talents), Arms spec shouldn't be synonymous with FR-spec, FR should be a viable option but not the only one...

[Anbokr]

"Please send help"

Sincerely, A Frost DK

Yeah, I leveled a frost DK recently and my god does it feel horrid. The damage just isn't there and it's very easy to feel competely rune-starved (and runic power starved) when empower rune weapon is down.