Only one Archimonde? What?(Spoilers)

[Selastan]

I believe the Titans are supposed to be or if I recall like demons transcend realities. At least that is what I remember. As for what you said, theoretically there should be a Velen in the Legion due to alternate Realities would...be interesting. Again though I doubt Blizzard will address it. I think Blizz is trying to distance themselves from WoD as much as possible.

On the contrary, I doubt they would pull this whole undecipherable mess of a story without something in mind. They hold one single thread that, when pulled, will unravel this impossibly complex knot at leave us in awe. At least, that is what they think.

[HumbleDuck]

I am not a big lore guy, please correct me if I'm wrong:
What is the problem with alternate reality archimonds? I mean to me it looks like other archomondes either didn't join the legion, or if they did become a demon, only one could reach the highest rank ( duh), and that one is the one we fought multiple times.
Same goes for all other characters, demon or not. the only difference is that demons are not killable outside of the nether.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

On the contrary, I doubt they would pull this whole undecipherable mess of a story without something in mind. They hold one single thread that, when pulled, will unravel this impossibly complex knot at leave us in awe. At least, that is what they think.

They're not even addressing the heroes we met on Draenor or if we need them. You'd think they would. Only mention of Warlords is pretty small. They usually don't try to ignore it.

[Ingold]

Is there an alternate universe? Maybe alternate Dreanor is isolated from the main universe in the same way the timeless isle was separate from everything on Azeroth. Kairoz was studying the isle, maybe he made Dreanor the same way.

[RedNight at MMOC]

No, it means literally nothing. To post the same thing as the last two people who quoted you:

We might change it. This might not be canon. This might be something that we decide we're gonna tinker with.

"We might change it. This might not be canon." translates to it IS canon now. If it meant nothing, then how can it be canon? If Blizzard was to say, "Yeah, Varian died, but do not worry - it might not be canon," that does not mean Varian is still alive just because there is uncertainty in the potential of changing the current story direction.

[Irian]

Basically when Draenor was anchored to our timeline (once Garrosh entered it) that Draenor became a part of our timeline. AU Draenor is a part of Azeroth's universe now in an indirect way. Once that happened, the Archimonde and Mannoroth that visited became our Archimonde and Mannoroth.

Basically time travel is bullshit and don't bother trying to figure it out. That was the Archimonde as of lore right now.

[Seifross]

"We might change it. This might not be canon." translates to it IS canon now. If it meant nothing, then how can it be canon? If Blizzard was to say, "Yeah, Varian died, but do not worry - it might not be canon," that does not mean Varian is still alive just because there is uncertainty in the potential of changing the current story direction.

Mate, you've really lost your whole argument somewhere along the line.

Archimonde clearly dies on Draenor, and therefore his soul returned to the Nether to recover and wait for a new body.

This is what you were saying at first, and what we're disagreeing with. The relevant part of the post is here:

Is Archimonde really dead?
And the idea was if you played in Mythic and defeated Archimonde, you actually defeated him in the Nether and that he'd be dead dead for good. That was the idea that we played with. We tried to explain that and I don't know if... that certainly doesn't come across in-game because it's not necessarily explained in-game. Maybe we'll change that. Maybe we'll change the canon of that.(Source)

"Is Archimonde dead?"

"Yes, but that's not shown well in-game."

That's the problem, and why the canon might be changed. You seem to have it backwards. The idea isn't that he died on Draenor, and that they might change the canon to have him dying in the nether. The problem is that their original idea was that the Mythic kill was canon, but realized how confusing that is for most players, so now they're unsure of how to proceed.

again, they are not sure if they want it to be canon or not.
the cinematic means jackshit.

For now, it means everything.

So, contrary to what you said here, the cutscene means nothing. Blizzard's whole problem with the situation is that the cutscene is worthless. As you helpfully highlighted, Kosak said "We might change it. It might not be canon". What you're missing is that this is in reference to the Mythic kill, not the cutscene. As it stands, the cutscene's canonicity is just as dubious as the Mythic kill, but we know the Mythic kill was originally intended to be canonical.

Edit: To make it super clear:

"We might change it. This might not be canon." translates to it IS canon now.

Yes, but the quote is in reference to the Mythic kill, not the cutscene. In other words, you've started arguing against yourself, for some reason. As it stands, Blizzard intended Archimonde to be dead for good. They're unsure now on how to proceed with his character, presumably because only a small fraction of the player base has seen the ending that was originally intended to be canonical.

[Qualia]

Is there an alternate universe? Maybe alternate Dreanor is isolated from the main universe in the same way the timeless isle was separate from everything on Azeroth. Kairoz was studying the isle, maybe he made Dreanor the same way.

There is. Afrasiabi answered in an interview that there is an alternate Azeroth to go with alternate Draenor and that "there are alternate worlds across the multiverse. There is a multiverse, right", they just don't have any plan for it right now.

Basically when Draenor was anchored to our timeline (once Garrosh entered it) that Draenor became a part of our timeline.

No, it's not. It's still part of its own universe and timeline. We just traveled over that universe in the past and changed that timeline instead. It didn't become part of our universe and timeline.

I am not a big lore guy, please correct me if I'm wrong:
What is the problem with alternate reality archimonds? I mean to me it looks like other archomondes either didn't join the legion, or if they did become a demon, only one could reach the highest rank ( duh), and that one is the one we fought multiple times.
Same goes for all other characters, demon or not. the only difference is that demons are not killable outside of the nether.

Basically, up until WoD and Legion, there isn't any problem with alternate *demon* Archimondes. It was a feasible theory. However, it can't be canon now simply because Blizzard themselves stated that there is only one version for each demon.

Of course, there can be many alternate *non-demon* Archimonde. That isn't wrong, the "only one Archimonde" (or other demons) was applied to the demon version only.

[RedNight at MMOC]

"Is Archimonde dead?"

"Yes, but that's not shown well in-game."

Archimonde has "died" multiple times now, and is certainly coming back after he is done regenerating in the Twisting Nether. As the lore stands, Archimonde clearly dies on Draenor and NOT in the Twisting Nether. I could honestly care less about what Blizzard's uncertain stance is since the lore presented to us is very clear: Archimonde utters his last words, commits his final act, and breathes his last breath on Draenor. If he died in the Twisting Nether, how could he send Gul'dan through the Black Gate to start the Legion expansion? Short answer: HE COULD NOT!

"Mate, you lost your whole argument."

[Seifross]

Archimonde has "died" multiple times now, and is certainly coming back after he is done regenerating in the Twisting Nether. As the lore stands, Archimonde clearly dies on Draenor and NOT in the Twisting Nether. I could honestly care less about what Blizzard's uncertain stance is since the lore presented to us is very clear: Archimonde utters his last words, commits his final act, and breathes his last breath on Draenor. If he died in the Twisting Nether, how could he send Gul'dan through the Black Gate to start the Legion expansion? Short answer: HE COULD NOT!

There's a blue post, from the person in charge of the entire story, and he literally says "Archimonde died in the Nether, but this was confusing, so it may be changed. At present, it's up in the air."

How you can interpret that as "The cutscene is canon and the Mythic kill is not" is totally beyond me. I'm not saying that the Mythic kill makes more sense - I agree that it introduced a plot hole and is probably the worse decision all-up. I'm just stating facts and quoting the person who is literally in charge of the process.

Mate, you've really lost your whole argument somewhere along the line.

To be clear, when I said this, I meant it in the sense that you seem to have confused yourself and forgotten what you were saying. I don't mean to say "you've lost" in the childish sense of arguing.

As the lore stands, Archimonde clearly dies on Draenor and NOT in the Twisting Nether...the lore presented to us is very clear: Archimonde utters his last words, commits his final act, and breathes his last breath on Draenor.

This is factually incorrect. That's the whole point. We have the one and only authority on this subject telling us otherwise, which is why three people have quoted it to you. It is silly, and it makes more sense if he doesn't, for sure. But as it stands, him dying in the Nether is Blizzard's stance, because remember...

"We might change it. This might not be canon." translates to it IS canon now.

[Qualia]

Archimonde has "died" multiple times now, and is certainly coming back after he is done regenerating in the Twisting Nether. As the lore stands, Archimonde clearly dies on Draenor and NOT in the Twisting Nether. I could honestly care less about what Blizzard's uncertain stance is since the lore presented to us is very clear: Archimonde utters his last words, commits his final act, and breathes his last breath on Draenor. If he died in the Twisting Nether, how could he send Gul'dan through the Black Gate to start the Legion expansion? Short answer: HE COULD NOT!

That's wrong. When Kosak refer to "dead" there, he meant what he said - "dead dead for good" (as you can see in the transcription). The question was "Is Archimonde really dead?", if they were talking about normal "dead" for demons (that doesn't matter), the "really" part wouldn't make any sense as we already see him dying in both versions (Mythic & non-Mythic). The question was just whether he can come back or not. Remember that this came from a developer instead of an in-game character that doesn't know how demons work. When he said that Archimonde is "dead dead for good", then he is. The word of god - especially stated AFTER the release of the cutscene - would override the cutscene if they contradict each other.

To answer your question of "how could he send Gul'dan through the Black Gate to start the Legion expansion?" - obviously he wouldn't have done it in the same manner in the cutscene. That's why he said it didn't come across well (they even showed the cutscene during that reply) - they probably was just too rushed (or lazy) to think of a new plotline and create a new cutscene, that's why it was left as it was. Still, the idea, according to WoG, is that he would be dead dead for good. Of course, he left some rooms for them to nullify that idea with the "maybe we will change that" statement. However, given that Gul'dan - who now know how demons work very well - called ONLY player with Archimonde Mythic achievement "Slayer of Archimonde" in the Warlock artifact chain in Legion, it's very likely that they haven't changed that idea and Archimonde is still "dead dead". Otherwise, ask yourself, why was only people with Archimonde Mythic kill called "Slayer of Archimonde"? What happened to Normal / Heroic / LFR achievement?

[Irian]

No, it's not. It's still part of its own universe and timeline. We just traveled over that universe in the past and changed that timeline instead. It didn't become part of our universe and timeline.

I'm aware that AU draenor isn't our draenor timeline-wise. I was saying in a roundabout way that the things in AU draenor are not really an alternate timeline anymore but rather a connected dimension instead. There's honestly no better way to explain it because it's frankly really retarded.

[RedNight at MMOC]

There's a blue post,

I do not fucking care about the blue post when the cinematic contradicts it. However it is clear you will continue to spew out anything and everything to keep your head-canon high in the air, similar to how a child shouts his incoherent bullshit louder than his friends and believes that alone make him right.

To answer your question of "how could he send Gul'dan through the Black Gate to start the Legion expansion?" - obviously he wouldn't have done it in the same manner in the cutscene.

It would not happen, period. If Archimonde died in the Twisting Nether (which again the cutscene proves he does not), his soul does not magically travel to Draenor to push Gul'dan through the Black Gate: as you claim, he is "DEAD DEAD for good." If Archimonde died in the Twisting Nether, then Gul'dan would not have been sent to Kil'Jaeden and therefore the Legion expansion would not be happening right now - it is a simple series of cause and effect, a simple series a few of you guys are COMPLETELY ignoring for the sake of your head-canon.

Infracted.

[Seifross]

I do not fucking care about the blue post when the cinematic contradicts it. However it is clear you will continue to spew out anything and everything to keep your head-canon high in the air, similar to how a child shouts his incoherent bullshit louder than his friends and believes that alone make him right.

Try to calm down a little, we're talking about the canon of a game, it shouldn't be upsetting you this much. No need to start swearing.

The thing is that the blue post is from David Kosak, who you may or may not recognise as the writer. What is "canon" is 100% his decision, and 0% yours. He says "this is what's canon", nobody cares if you disagree. The cutscene being canon is your headcanon. I agree that it's ridiculous that a cutscene depicted in-game isn't the official storyline, but that's the case.

So, here's the thing; the cutscene clearly depicts a particular scene. That scene is not what the head writer of lore considers to be the official storyline. Moving forward, there's a good chance that the cutscene will be disregarded in it's entirety. That's what we're saying.

There's no head canon, there's no opinions at play, this is entirely, 100% factual information that we're proving to you. You're trying to argue against it for, what, exactly? Because you don't like the story? That's fine. I think it's a silly mistake, and that the Mythic kill makes almost zero sense.

But, none of that matters, because we're not David Kosak. He decides what is and isn't canon, not us. If what we think is canon goes against his idea, then ours is the headcanon and his is the official. That's what canon is - the storyline that's official according to the creator. In this case, we've quoted it to you so many times I don't need to do so again.

Your problem is this line:

"I do not fucking care about the blue post when the cinematic contradicts it."

That's the problem that I keep mentioning. The cinematic is wrong, lore-wise. That's a big issue for sure, but it's where we stand. The cinematic is irrelevant in the lore (which has already had strange seperation issues from what occurs in-game).

So...I don't really know what you're trying to say. You believe the cinematic over the Word of God, which came after the cinematic was released. This means, canonically, that the cinematic was irrelevant. That's literally the whole point that I've been parroting since the first post, and that you're ignoring.

We don't decide what's canon, and more importantly, what you see in-game is not necessarily what is canon. That's a problem with Blizzard's storytelling, IMO, but we've been dealing with it since Vanilla. As it stands, the writing team thinks Archimonde is dead, but may or may not change this moving forward.

Very simply, to re-re-reiterate my point, the cinematic isn't canonical. That's ridiculous, yes, but that's the case. You can argue with the writing team as much as you want, but I'm going to go ahead and believe them over you. I agree with you in the sense that the cinematic makes a lot more sense, but it simply isn't canon at the moment.

"However it is clear you will continue to spew out anything and everything to keep your head-canon high in the air, similar to how a child shouts his incoherent bullshit louder than his friends and believes that alone make him right."

I'm coming back to this sentence because it sort of blows my mind.

"Anything and everything" here refers to an official public post on the subject by the person who wrote the scenario.

"Head-canon" here refers to the official, Blizzard-sanctioned canon. You may recognise this as the only possible story that literally isn't head-canon.

"...believes that alone make him right." This apparently refers to David Kosak clearing up the matter. What I believe makes me right is the fact that Blizzard has made an official public post that says as much. This isn't rocket science. What's depicted in-game isn't necessarily canonically correct. I don't know if you're relatively knew to WoW or what the story is, but it's been this way for a long time.

I don't think I can make this clearer. You have simple, irrefutable proof and refuse to believe it, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'll go on believing the people who write the game, you can go on believing yourself.

Edit: Sorry for the super long and rambley post, but it is at least on topic. I'm making good on my word when I say we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I'm not revisiting this post. There's nothing to argue, because everyone can freely go and read Blizzard's stance on the subject, which is literally what "canon" means.

[Qualia]

It would not happen, period. If Archimonde died in the Twisting Nether (which again the cutscene proves he does not), his soul does not magically travel to Draenor to push Gul'dan through the Black Gate: as you claim, he is "DEAD DEAD for good." If Archimonde died in the Twisting Nether, then Gul'dan would not have been sent to Kil'Jaeden and therefore the Legion expansion would not be happening right now - it is a simple series of cause and effect, a simple series a few of you guys are COMPLETELY ignoring for the sake of your head-canon.

And I addressed that same issue in the next line that you seemed to have ignored. To quote myself:

That's why he said it didn't come across well (they even showed the cutscene during that reply) - they probably was just too rushed (or lazy) to think of a new plotline and create a new cutscene, that's why it was left as it was.

The only important point for Legion to happen is that Gul'dan goes through that portal. There are many ways to do that other than having Archimonde sending him there. As I said, Blizzard probably was just too lazy to create a new pretty cinematic for Mythic only (when have they?).

It isn't headcanon when it was stated by the developer (Kosak in this case). Something is headcanon when it was only stated by a non-authoritative person, or an outdated statement. For example, you'd be right if Kosak NEVER made that statement, and it was only something I said. However, that wasn't the case here. I realized just now that you are confused when you don't understand how that work, based on your ("I do not fucking care about the blue post when the cinematic contradicts it"). Well, you should care. Word of God held as much (if not more) value than in-game content.
It'd be one thing if he made that statement BEFORE the release of the encounter / cinematic. However, he made that AFTER, which means it'd be canon over the pre-existing stuffs until they release a newer statement that contradicts it. That's how canonical stuffs / WoG go. As I joked by an extreme case before, Blizzard could have said "Sargeras is a bunny", and Sargeras will be a bunny regardless of everything else in game saying he is a Titan (or a fel-Titan). The pre-existing lore will have to reshape itself to fit the author's statement (or be considered non-canon). That's how it works.

Again, I bring what Gul'dan said in Warlock artifact chain to your attention. He call us "Slayer of Archimonde" only if you have Archimonde kills on Mythic. He doesn't call people with Normal, LFR, Heroic kills that. If the deaths in Mythic and non-Mythic are the same (which means not "dead dead" and he can come back), why would the only player with M-Archimonde be "Slayer of Archimonde"? Wouldn't we all be the same because we slayed him in the same manner?

I wouldn't completely rule out the chance of Archimonde coming back, due to the "maybe we will change that" part of Kosak's statement. However, "maybe" doesn't mean "definitely", and with what Gul'dan said, I'm more inclined that *at the time being*, they haven't changed their mind in Archimonde's "dead dead" status yet.

[RedNight at MMOC]

Word of God held as much (if not more) value than in-game content.

And that is when I knew he was completely insane and beyond the point of return.

[Qualia]

And that is when I knew he was completely insane and beyond the point of return.

Well, whether you / we like it or not, that's how canonical stuffs work. You may not like it, or maybe you think the statement is retarded, or it's also possible that you think Blizzard is incompetent if that was true, but that is another matter. For now, what Kosak said is canon until we get other newer canonical information contradicting it.

[Deleted]

Velen isn't a demon.

He just needs to be converted to the Burning legion in one of the infinite realities mentioned by Algaron and Skyriss. It's quite strange that we haven't seen him yet.

- - - Updated - - -

nice made up cannon

there is only 2 guldans, and the one knows of the other, learning about what happened from kiljaden and khadgar
where did you get 3 jaraxxuses from? each demon is unique, but the bodies we kill are just avatars, their souls are in the twisting nether, and we must destroy it to stop them from coming back

as the guy below you said

demons are players who can constantly just respawn after a respawn timer, the only way to kill them is to go kill the one controlling the charecter in their home

My bad, mixed up Jaraxxus and Socrethar.

You have the original one in MU outlands, died and returned to TN. Then Socrethar AU as Othaar is transformed into a brand new demon, died and was sent to the TN. Socrethar3 is the spawn of soc2 as he somehow made it back and infused himself into a crystal, also died and is sent into a infinite loop

[FelPlague]

He just needs to be converted to the Burning legion in one of the infinite realities mentioned by Algaron and Skyriss. It's quite strange that we haven't seen him yet.

- - - Updated - - -



My bad, mixed up Jaraxxus and Socrethar.

You have the original one in MU outlands, died and returned to TN. Then Socrethar AU as Othaar is transformed into a brand new demon, died and was sent to the TN. Socrethar3 is the spawn of soc2 as he somehow made it back and infused himself into a crystal, also died and is sent into a infinite loop

still only 2 socrethar not 3

also because the burning legion is too busy focused on ours, if they spent the time to go to ever single reality then they would never be able to kill the planet before it became corrupted

[Traveler Voltin]

until the figure it out.
Archimonde status of being alive or dead is unknown.
my opinion on this matter.