Tulsa Polic Shoot Unarmed Black Man with Hands Up.

[Mistame]

If you're trying to determine the truth, why would you go off a casual viewing of the video?

There's no logical reason for a casual user to analyze every single frame of a video. That doesn't take away from the value of the enlarged capture, but don't assume everyone's a forensic analyst, either.

[Xahz]

No, not "merely". Here is what I said

"If while attempting to detain someone, if they ignore an officers command and move in a way (say reach into their waistband or reach into their car) that appears that they're reaching for something, an officer use less than lethal or lethal force depending on the exact scenario."

I meant to add "can" into that last bit but I'm sure its still readable without me adding it back in.

Speaking about that last bit, you notice the mention of "depending on the exact scenario"? Yea, that's there for a reason.

My statement wasn't even close to being properly represented.

Like I said, pointless. So your statement is that "the officers can use varying amounts of force depending on the situation." Yea, no shit buddy; no one is disputing whether they "can" use force. The argument is that they should not use force simply because someone is reaching for "something" if they don't know what that something is and they have no reason to suspect that the person in question is intending to cause harm.

You've done a good job of typing very much and saying very little. Effectively, all you've pointed out is that officers should approach differently situations differently - something that's immediately obvious to everyone with a brain.

[chrisfover87]

The argument is that they should not use force simply because someone is reaching for "something" if they don't know what that something is and they have no reason to suspect that the person in question is intending to cause harm.

The truth is they have a lot of reasons to suspect the person is intending to cause harm as he failed to obey the officers' lawful orders and instructions.

[Taneras]

Like I said, pointless. So your statement is that "the officers can use varying amounts of force depending on the situation."...

And...

That contrary to what a lot of people have said in this thread, disobeying police commands and reaching around areas that they don't have vision of (waist band, behind your back, inside your car, whatever) is a factor that should be taken into account when determining how much force is necessary even up to lethal force.

[petej0]

The screen capture, blown up, from the video from the helicopter makes it pretty clear the window is up. It is not "pretty clear" through just a casual viewing of the video.

That is only one angle, as the helicopter pans around the line disappears which makes it seem like it could be a seatbelt or crease in the seat.

[Jinpachi]

Weak snark aside, how does one square a country where owning a firearm is a fundamental civil right with a policing policy where the presence of a firearm justifies lethal force against you?

they're not mutually exclusive. It's called compliance. dont comply with an order, you're going to have a bad time.

[Polyxo]

The appropriate action for what the guy may have done is "walk up to him, and put his hands where you want them to be, and if need be, cuff him". You don't even need to involve a taser at that point. The whole 'we have to shoot anyone who does anything out of the ordinary, or anything besides exactly what we say' notion is absurd. As I've said before, I would've killed 60 people or more if I used that standard when I worked clubs.

People want to simultaneously anoint cops as these fearless arbiters of justice in the face of constant danger, and excuse them as skittish little fawns who need to be reassured at every second that no one will hurt them.

[anyaka21]

With 4 officers there, I see no reason to actually use a gun. A taser would probably have been sufficient, but then we are looking at it through video eyes and not there.

1st speculation - there just doesn't seem to be any justifiable reason for the guy to be going to the vehicles front door, regardless o fwhether or not the window is up or down, especially from the way the officers react.

Obviously, based on the video and the commentary from it, it seems like something happened if 2 cops fired, one with taser and one with a bullet. Thus, he could easily have been reasching for the door handle while given specific instructions to stay where he was. It could easily be determined that he was trying to reach into his pocket or pants where a gun might be or trying to open the car door and reach for a gun. Again, to cops reacted, thus 2 felt it a dangerous situation. This doesn't excuse it by any means, just speculation on my part because this definitely seems like it could have been avoided.

3rd observation, depending on whether or not the guy was on something, might mean he's not reacting normally, and as thus not complying with the officers. And if he's on something hallucenogenic, then he might not feel or be able to resist the effects of being tasered. But someone with more medical knowledge than me would have to answer that.

[PizzaSHARK]

Have you ever seen one of the many videos where someone is "just" reaching for something? Before the cop can even tell him to stop reaching the guy already shot him multiple times.

Putting your hands out of view when anyone has a gun pointed at you is just a death sentence.

That's where training comes into play. A well-trained officer will prevent the situation from reaching that point. Remember how all of those videos involved a completely untrained media activist playing the role of the cop?

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With 4 officers there, I see no reason to actually use a gun. A taser would probably have been sufficient, but then we are looking at it through video eyes and not there.

1st speculation - there just doesn't seem to be any justifiable reason for the guy to be going to the vehicles front door, regardless o fwhether or not the window is up or down, especially from the way the officers react.

Obviously, based on the video and the commentary from it, it seems like something happened if 2 cops fired, one with taser and one with a bullet. Thus, he could easily have been reasching for the door handle while given specific instructions to stay where he was. It could easily be determined that he was trying to reach into his pocket or pants where a gun might be or trying to open the car door and reach for a gun. Again, to cops reacted, thus 2 felt it a dangerous situation. This doesn't excuse it by any means, just speculation on my part because this definitely seems like it could have been avoided.

3rd observation, depending on whether or not the guy was on something, might mean he's not reacting normally, and as thus not complying with the officers. And if he's on something hallucenogenic, then he might not feel or be able to resist the effects of being tasered. But someone with more medical knowledge than me would have to answer that.

PCP is a hallucinogenic drug, or at least can have those effects. I'm rather suspicious of the rather fortuitous discovery of a "vial of PCP" in Crutcher's vehicle, but if he was on PCP it could explain his non-compliance.

Even if he was, however, it still doesn't grant them justification for escalation to lethal force.

[THE Bigzoman]

That's where training comes into play. A well-trained officer will prevent the situation from reaching that point. Remember how all of those videos involved a completely untrained media activist playing the role of the cop?

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PCP is a hallucinogenic drug, or at least can have those effects. I'm rather suspicious of the rather fortuitous discovery of a "vial of PCP" in Crutcher's vehicle, but if he was on PCP it could explain his non-compliance.

Even if he was, however, it still doesn't grant them justification for escalation to lethal force.

I'm rather gitty about your rather frequent use of rather as a descriptor.

But that is just me giving you a hard time because it's been a god damn while. What you up to,?

[Polyxo]

I'm rather gitty about your rather frequent use of rather as a descriptor.

But that is just me giving you a hard time because it's been a god damn while. What you up to,?

Just picture his avatar saying it. It's fantastic when its a shark with a monocle. And saying like, 'cheerio' and 'balderdash' and stuff like that.

[Traveler Voltin]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-polic...ry?id=42290178

So she turns herself in and yet bonds out 20 minutes later after being booked in.

Also more talking about details we know

[PizzaSHARK]

I'm rather gitty about your rather frequent use of rather as a descriptor.

But that is just me giving you a hard time because it's been a god damn while. What you up to,?

Pish posh, my use of "rather" is tickety-boo!

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No? I don't remember that because that's bullshit. So, you're saying the cop should be trained to avoid the situation but at the same time don't expect people to obey their orders? Because that's how you avoid those situations.

The only ones that come to mind was when a sheriff's department invited some black media activist to a training course type deal and they put him in situations deputies would commonly find themselves in, and he failed miserably. Died a lot, shot more or less innocent people a lot, etc.

Police are (or should be) equipped with a number of less-lethal methods of restraining and controlling individuals that are uncooperative, whether it's a taser, baton, etc. Even drawing their service pistol shouldn't be done unless they're given very good reason to do so. Someone trying to walk back to their vehicle after behaving oddly and being uncooperative does warrant use of less-lethal force (because they could become a threat to themselves or others if they're trying to retrieve a weapon that isn't visible), but does not warrant use of lethal force.

The reason this activist guy "died" a lot is because he basically just stood there trying to talk to an actor that was deliberately ignoring him, walking back to their vehicle to retrieve a weapon (which they then shot the "deputy" with.) A trained officer would not allow that to happen in the first place - they'd restrain the individual through whatever less-lethal means necessary if they were being belligerent or otherwise uncooperative.

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http://abcnews.go.com/US/tulsa-polic...ry?id=42290178

So she turns herself in and yet bonds out 20 minutes later after being booked in.

Also more talking about details we know

Don't see the issue with her bonding out. She isn't exactly a flight risk, nor is the likelihood of her going on a rampage particularly high.

[spinner981]

Better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

Personally, I think that a cop who uses lethal force against an unarmed person is a worthless s.o.b.

If someone is unarmed and yet still causing trouble, taze them, mace them, even maybe start using tranquilizer darts. But if some thug in blue actually shoots an unarmed person, the law should be thus: automatically fired and charged with 2nd degree murder.

Well that's stupid. I guess you are simply clueless that many situations have context that call for the neutralization of an 'unarmed' person? Oh, say, I dunno, wrestling the officer to the ground and trying to get a hold of the officer's gun?

[Deleted]

The fact remains that when encountering the police, you are gambling with your life by resisting arrest. You are fighting with someone who is armed, and has the legal authority to end your life in many circumstances.

Try that sh*t in Europe, see how fast you find yourself unemployed and facing criminal charges.
I mean, yeah, you will face charges for resisting arrest in most countries over here too, but getting shot? Wtf man, no way.

In the US they assume everyone is armed until they are assured otherwise, usually with a pat down. It has nothing to do with paranoia or any other bullshit you keep claiming about the police, it has to do with officer safety and nothing else. Every officer, whether you like it or not, has a RIGHT and even a fucking DUTY to protect their own life.

Or you know... be like the rest of the world, ban guns and teach your police officers to respect your citizens? There are countless ways for a non lethal takedown, without having to resort to shooting somebody.

Hell, even in Greece where half the police force belongs to a neo-nazi party, officers are only allowed to discharge their guns if they are first fired upon and they still have to PROVE afterwards that their assailants fired first and that their lives were in danger.

Seriously, if it works for the rest of the world, it can work for the US too.

[Polyxo]

Try that sh*t in Europe, see how fast you find yourself unemployed and facing criminal charges.
I mean, yeah, you will face charges for resisting arrest in most countries over here too, but getting shot? Wtf man, no way.


Or you know... be like the rest of the world, ban guns and teach your police officers to respect your citizens? There are countless ways for a non lethal takedown, without having to resort to shooting somebody.

Hell, even in Greece where half the police force belongs to a neo-nazi party, officers are only allowed to discharge their guns if they are first fired upon and they still have to PROVE afterwards that their assailants fired first and that their lives were in danger.

Seriously, if it works for the rest of the world, it can work for the US too.

It does work in the US, for people who basically deal with the same situations as cops. Depending on where you work, if you work clubs, you have a 'physical incident' rate way higher than the average cop. No one draws a gun. No one threatens to kill anybody at the slightest odd behavior.

[Gandrake]

when people complain about a nigga getting shot for not listening

[PizzaSHARK]

when people complain about a nigga getting shot for not listening

[video=youtube;0K2-NEo3NVU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K2-NEo3NVU[video]

Cool. Should we bring up a list of all the times cops shot unarmed people because they weren't trained properly?

Highlight reels don't mean shit.

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Just shows cops should learn to leave people alone. I guess the shooters in the video agree with me.

I like this video too:

[video=youtube;IlY9C6pzxKc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlY9C6pzxKc[video]

Ironically, soldiers are much better trained and not prone to unnecessary violence, despite the quip about cops being trained to be soldiers. When was the last time you heard of an unlawful shooting or brutality coming from the National Guard when they're brought in to keep order?

[Magicpot]

How many armed German Citizens are running around?

Near none, because sensible gun laws made it so near nobody but the police is allowed to roam around in public carrying a gun. Plenty of people have knifes though and even attack police officers with them, sometimes. Yet, the police officers somehow manage just fine to almost never use their guns.

Armed standoffs with police also more often end amicably here, because our criminal justice system is focused on rehabilitation mostly, so the prospect of going to jail 4-6 years seems not as bad as getting shot, while in the US, you can go to private prison literal hell for multiple decades for relatively minor offenses, so people are inherently more standoffish and have less to lose.

Cool. Should we bring up a list of all the times cops shot unarmed people because they weren't trained properly?

Highlight reels don't mean shit.

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Ironically, soldiers are much better trained and not prone to unnecessary violence, despite the quip about cops being trained to be soldiers. When was the last time you heard of an unlawful shooting or brutality coming from the National Guard when they're brought in to keep order?

Probably because soldiers go in with the expectation that they will be in danger, and with the expectation that its not okay to murder anyone at the first hint of it. From the events of the past months, what I'm gathering is that there are a lot of police officers who believe danger isn't really part of the job, and anyone who could pose any can be executed with no further quibble. Fuck that noise.

[Poopymonster]

Ironically, soldiers are much better trained and not prone to unnecessary violence, despite the quip about cops being trained to be soldiers. When was the last time you heard of an unlawful shooting or brutality coming from the National Guard when they're brought in to keep order?

Given how big a clusterfuck Kent State was, it's understandable.