From a Vanilla Player: The reason why I think WoW lost its glory.

[Slashnox]

- Cross-realm stuff made your realm community non existing.

I've always put it down to cross realms.

WoW was awesome when your server was a community and you only interacted with each other. As more and more cross realm elements were added we lost the community and community is what makes MMOs good.

This, so much this. Wish it didn't exist.

[Mellrod]

Because the concept of "difficulty settings" eludes most WoW forum posters it seems.

True, but the game was challenging without difficulty settings back in vanilla. Heroics weren't a thing until BC. Maybe it's because of the tediousness of the game's mechanics or the grinding, but even PvE outside of instances had difficulty to it. Group quests were challenging and simple mobs required a bit more than just 3 clicks in your rotation. Especially at lower levels when you didnt have all of your abilities.

I do think modern WoW has improved on a lot that outweigh the things people loved Vanilla for, however Blizzard still has a lot to learn from older WoW. A lot of things they could stand to reincorporate back into the game perhaps.

[papajohn4]

Why I keep reading the game is easy and dumb and meanwhile only 1% (?) of players clear all mythic content before its nerfed?

Because when people are talking about game difficulty are not referring to just the 1-2% of overall content...

Is like playing witcher and rolf stomp anyone and then at the end of the story there is 1 boss fight ultra difficult and you argue that the game is ultra difficult because of that 1% at the end.

Also not everyone is interested in raiding without that means they want to play in god mode the rest of the game

[TheVaryag]

Hello, in advance I would like to apologize about my english, it is not my native language and I may not be able to completely explain what I want to.
My name is Gabriel, and I play WoW since late Vanilla or early The Burning Crusade, and World of Warcraft always been with me since then. I had breaks, like most of you, and skipped only one expansion, Warlords of Draenor, mainly because the aesthetic and lore was not interesting to me that time.
Now, returning to play Legion, and I found out something really sad about the game and the way it is heading, I have every class character past level 80, and it is something that happened across the board on all characters that I have: The game is moving towards a complete dumbed down and simplified version of what it was years ago.
In my point of view, what made WoW interesting, was not dailies or rep farming, or all the grind related, end game is used to be the boring part actually. WoW was more interesting because how I could, with hard work, differentiate my characters, like, my mage, from every other mage in my realm. I am not talking aesthetically only, but my build chosen, profession chosen, my gear chosen, the number of spells available to me for different purposes other than damage itself (remember amplify magic? Buffs? Mana Shield? Evocation?). Those spells made playing Mage something interesting, It was like, if you had enough time playing and learning your class, you could really be better than the other mage guy by just using your arsenal wiser. I could be half frost and half fire before specializations, I could have Ice Barrier and Fire Nova by going down both talent trees, trying different things was fun, PvP and PvE wise.
I know their intention is to make the game easier for new people, but they should not forget that when we once started playing back then, what made us enjoy the game itself was this same complexity that is going lost progressively. I feel like BG's nowadays are no different than a match of Counter-Strike, no trinkets procs, no profession stuffs and no anything that would make you feel different from the other guy, where all are the same thing and what really matters is your skill, internet connection and communication. It is good to have your skills in such a place where they are essential for the gameplay, but your time investing should be rewarded with a more personalized, customized and fun experience with your character.
I don't know if I made myself clear, but it is like, I had a deeper relation with my main character back then, and now he is just another dumbed down version of itself that runs around with different clothing thanks to transmog.
Thanks for listening, but it is not like I am on a nostalgia crysis, It is like the game lost the passion the people had on designing it and are making their jobs easier by just creating a less organic gameplay environment.

Ps.: Even Artifact weapons is bad in my opinion, you end up being with the same very weapon as everyone else. Not fun at all.

Problems pointed by other players that I agree:

- Epics are too easily available and raiding is not as rewarding as it was anymore.
- Cross-realm stuff made your realm community non existing.

My man, I completely agree with you. I've played since the beginning of Vanila myself, well not the very beginning, about a month or so after launch on EU or something... and I've had the same problems.

First thing, I also loved the talent trees, they just gave so much more choice, I remember speccing my Death Knight, Into like 2/3 Blood, and like 10 points Into Frost (Back when Frost was the tanking spec mind you, not blood), and If I remember Frost had talents that gave you good damage with duel wielding, so I was a mostly blood DK with duel wielding and It worked out well, I had fun, was actually quite OP being specced Into Frost, howling blast gave lots of aoe damage, and critted a lot.

That's just an example, you could spec your Hunter to be half ranged, half melee Instead of one or the other. Back when there were Survival talents that gave you Melee centered and obviously survival abilities, and that's back when Hunter WAS Melee, I dont' remember if Cataclysm or Pandaland took away hunters melee weapons, but that's when I started liking Hunter less.

I won't agree on the end game thing, like to me at least Endgame was exploring you know? I'll agree that endgame to me wasn't raiding, or dungeons or such, it was like a "Side" thing, optional. For a story perhaps, like go In once or twice, see the story, get loot, done. To me endgame was exploring, even PvPing (That's my pvp bias though mind you).

In the end, the problem this man Is highlighting Is this: Casualifying the game, which Is what I've scorned the game for since Cataclysm, I mean I like casual... In the sense that I'd play a few times a week nowadays, not In the sense that "I need the game to be easier please" no, I want It to be hard, to be hardcore, to be "Lots of choices and personalifying" your characters. And Blizzard failed to do so since Cataclysm..

You think It's a coincidence the subs have dropped from 10 million down to 5.5 towards Q3 2015 In Warlords? People saw the casual overtaking WoW and they didn't like It. Those 10 million people, the majority of them, hardcore players, and you took the hardcore away and they can only do one thing to show their dissatisfaction and that's the one given right as a consumer: Not give blizzard money anymore, show them they're doing something wrong. The subs now are estimated around 4 Million, 5 If you're a fanboy and think the game will never die. And realisticly, since 6.2 up Until 7.0 Pre-patch, the subs were as low as 3 million towards the end of Warlords, what was there to do? There was a 14 month content draught. More If you don't count 6.1 as content, cause I don't. And neither will I count 7.1 as a good content patch either, It's just a small raid, one extra chapter In Suramar and the Karazhan Mythic raid on weekly lockout. I'm not sure that's Blizzard-quality patch, we'd have to see of course so I don't counter my own words of "Wait and then judge" but judge I will when It comes.

[micwini]

Yeah, I get your point and agree a bit.
Compare it to this: What would hearthstone be like if there were only 9 decks(1 for each class) to play? In wow you had those talents. You could go for cookie cutter, but you could also experiment.
Just like in hearthstone now, there are always a few decks that are the best, but there is room for experimentation.

[Dracullus]

This is not WoW, just all games changed (and this is a good thing!). Compare Morrowind to Skyrim - ask someone that played both after premiere, everyone will tell that Morrowind was bigger, more immersive etc.

But if you play Morrowind again, you will see that this is just an illusion - it felt bigger because there was no fast travel, you must read journal and figure out how to do stuff, and quests are not as good as you remembered them - in fact Skyrim quests have much more quality than Morrowind, and Witcher 3 quests are better than Skyrim ones - developers just are getting better and better with their jobs.

In WoW raids/dungeons/quests/zones are always better than in previous expansion (sometimes you can not like theme, like I don't like MoP dungeons, but I see that they are clearly better than Cata ones). WoD problem was not quality, it was quantity (and world content design - WoD have mobs and rares like Legion, but you kill them once and forget about it).

So, design in all games changed, whether you like it or not. They are more accesible, not as time consuming as before, and more polished. If you have problem with this try that:

[EternalBany]

I also have played since the closed beta.
From what i can tell its the following:


-epics acessibility. i dont care if you have to create 1000 blue items and blue sets that drop from dungeons AND raids. You incrementally but very slowly increase their numbers and you sure as hell dont give out epics so casually.
-cross realms (you need to have these - cant do anything about this)
-data mining and fan sites telling you what to do (cant do anything about this)

These things are mostly out of blizzards control, so they should be commended for their work.

[Xsy]

"As a Vanilla player" and "Sorry for my english, not native speaker" while having perfectly fine english, I chuckled a bit.

As for the topic, I was a teenager in Vanilla so I had a lot of time to go pretty hardcore into it. Cleared halfway into Naxx, did PvP, all the things. Personally, compared to the state of the game today, Vanilla was absolute dogshit, I can't believe I even spent so much time on such garbage. That's just my opinion though considering my preferences, you might have different ones and that's fine. But, some statements are just plain wrong. There was nothing "complex" in vanilla/tbc. You had cookie-cutter specs that you put in and played as with minimal changes.
You liked changing around things, good for you, but from my experience most people just looked up the best talents, put that in and forgot about it. There is nothing to even say about ability rotations. Warlocks were Shadowbolt turrets, The only tanks were warriors, druids had potentially four different play-styles, but in raids they had to be healers only. I can go on for a while.

If you want the Vanilla experience so bad, go find a private server and have fun, but realize that the game will never be what it was in Vanilla, and in my opinion, that's for the best.
Also, your English is obviously fine, you don't need to apologize for it.

[DesoPL]

I said once that gaming industry gone into wrong way and people said that i need to accept it or turn into gamer caveman. I choose second option.

Blizzard just slowly starting don't care for WoW.

[Deleted]

It's not lazier, its better design. Why should someone have to spend hours and hours of their life doing a repetitive, dull, tedious task so that their character can do .05% more damage. No one in their right mind would do that, only people with deeper personal issues would.

It's like you want to feel special for something and all you have to do is put in time in the game and you'll be special in the game, but the game has taken that feeling away from you more and more and now you're sad about it or something and blame Blizzard, yet it all stems from your inability to face your issues with yourself.

The old way was super unhealthy for 100 different reasons and that partly is why it changed. All you hardcore people can get the h$%^ out of the game and go be toxic people somewhere else.

That's why my previous message before this one is like that:

Vanilla/BC/WOTLK (until ICC patch): MMO-RPG

CATA/MOP/WOD/Legion: MMO-Hack and Slash

In the topic itself, agree to disagree. Today's gamers wanted all fast and easy, everybody know that. I don't know why, but the terminology "gamer" change, 10 years ago a gamer was a lonely guy, a freak, a weirdo, etc...now a gamer is a guy who is playing candy chrush, people just see a gamer as normal. And with the change of terminology, came the change of the industry, cause the market was so open to this "gamers". In the last 6 years, you only have to watch the numer of triple A games dedicated to the real gamers...is really small. 10 years ago, was the standard, triple A games to real gamers.

Also in the topic of Vanilla, well, is not repetitive, grindy and tedious doing world quest now every day for the reputation? Is the same thing just easy to do it, that's all.

And i don't wan't to be special or feel special, what i wan't is having the posibility to play they way i wan't whitout afect the retail wow, cause i don't wan't to change how Legion and wow today is, cause i like it too. And i don't blame Blizzard for what he did, i don't care, my life is not that empty to blame a company for his choices. I just put the number on the table and i just said that since the changes, every xpac have less people playing. That is not a critic, is just a fact, less people play the game since 2010 when the change start. I DON'T CARE, i still playing for the last 11 years, i live the changes and i accept them.

The old way whas super unhealthy...well...i don't see that. And btw, tell people to GTFO the game cause we are toxic, is wat is making this game have less player every year.

And about the cross realms, is easy to solve this problem. They have TOO MUCH REALMS, why they don't close 70% of them and move the people? For example, we have 10 realms in Spain, but to be honest, we only need like 3 or 4 at best, with 2 we can be together with no problems. English realms...there are like...how many? 150 or something? With 30 or 40 is ALL what they need today, and they solved this problem.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Why I keep reading the game is easy and dumb and meanwhile only 1% (?) of players clear all mythic content before its nerfed?

Because people are as dumb as they claim the game has become. They make claims about the game being "dumbed down", and then turn around to hail a period in the game when it was at its dumbest both in terms of class mechanics and boss mechanics. The reason why it was hard, came from logistical demands and the fact that very few people had a fucking clue.

A world rare of today can have more danger to it than 2 raid bosses put together from Classic.

[Deleted]

Mechanics of the game have never been better.
I played from early Vanilla and honestly the game itself is leaps and bounds better now.
The only thing that I think is ruined is the community, and that is due to cross realm. Suddenly the cesspool of anonymous pricks was open
Before that they would be shunned on the server if they acted badly.
Close the inactive servers and remove crossrealm and I honestly believe the community will become better again.

[Deleted]

Because people are dumb. They make claims about the game being "dumbed down", and then turn around to hail a period in the game when it was at its dumbest both in terms of class mechanics and boss mechanics. The reason why it was hard, came from logistical demands and the fact that very few people had a fucking clue.

A world rare of today can have more danger to it than 2 raid bosses put together from Classic.

The problem with that is the mythic. I prefeer the old system where you advance from raid to raid, now no, when you advance IN THE SAME RAID, just a bit difficult.

Give me 1 difficultie, the mythuc one, i don't care, and work in the other raid. But don't make me do the same content just a bit harder. I feel really stupid doing 15 clears in normal, 10 clears in heroic and 20 clears in mithyc to get a better gear from the same raid.

And again, you are claiming that the difficultie is on the mechanics, but is not only that. Mechanics are NOT the only thing that make's something harder. And yes, in part the first 3 years of WoW people have less idea what to do, but top guild exist and they do what to do, and they have pain to do it.

[Jewsco]

Oh look another vanilla player telling everyone how great the game use to be never seen one of these threads before. What do we get like 2 to 3 of these a week now? Why are they always allowed here? If one liked vanilla so much then legion should be for you because everything is a grind even professions. Add in the artifact weapon is the old talent tree or did you miss that too? Heck, they even went as far to make some specs and classes near useless just like in vanilla. Oh and cut are abilities just like in vanilla. So shouldn't you be enjoying this?

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The problem with that is the mythic. I prefeer the old system where you advance from raid to raid, now know, when you advance IN THE SAME RAID, just a bit difficult.

Give me 1 difficultie, the mythuc one, i don't care, and work in the other raid. But don't make me do the same content just a bit harder. I feel really stupid doing 15 clears in normal, 10 clears in heroic and 20 clears in mithyc to get a better gear from the same raid.

And again, you are claiming that the difficultie is on the mechanics, but is not only that. Mechanics are NOT the only thing that make's something harder. And yes, in part the first 3 years of WoW people have less idea what to do, but top guild exist and they do what to do, and they have pain to do it.

Uhm?? You didn't run the same raid over and over on the same difficulty I might add back then? Or you geared up in one run? You do also know if a good enough player you can skip right over normal and do heroic right? Last I check what 2 pieces of gear dropped for 40 players in vanilla so to gear up meant many, many runs.

[Mirishka]

Oh yes, true.

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Not everyone had the necessity to pick up cookie cutter talents, some people, like me, like to try new things outside the box.

Which sounds great until people wonder why you're only doing 50% of the damage you should be, discover your 'outside the box' build, and kick you.

[Jewsco]

That's why my previous message before this one is like that:

Vanilla/BC/WOTLK (until ICC patch): MMO-RPG

CATA/MOP/WOD/Legion: MMO-Hack and Slash

In the topic itself, agree to disagree. Today's gamers wanted all fast and easy, everybody know that. I don't know why, but the terminology "gamer" change, 10 years ago a gamer was a lonely guy, a freak, a weirdo, etc...now a gamer is a guy who is playing candy chrush, people just see a gamer as normal. And with the change of terminology, came the change of the industry, cause the market was so open to this "gamers". In the last 6 years, you only have to watch the numer of triple A games dedicated to the real gamers...is really small. 10 years ago, was the standard, triple A games to real gamers.

Also in the topic of Vanilla, well, is not repetitive, grindy and tedious doing world quest now every day for the reputation? Is the same thing just easy to do it, that's all.

And i don't wan't to be special or feel special, what i wan't is having the posibility to play they way i wan't whitout afect the retail wow, cause i don't wan't to change how Legion and wow today is, cause i like it too. And i don't blame Blizzard for what he did, i don't care, my life is not that empty to blame a company for his choices. I just put the number on the table and i just said that since the changes, every xpac have less people playing. That is not a critic, is just a fact, less people play the game since 2010 when the change start. I DON'T CARE, i still playing for the last 11 years, i live the changes and i accept them.

The old way whas super unhealthy...well...i don't see that. And btw, tell people to GTFO the game cause we are toxic, is wat is making this game have less player every year.

And about the cross realms, is easy to solve this problem. They have TOO MUCH REALMS, why they don't close 70% of them and move the people? For example, we have 10 realms in Spain, but to be honest, we only need like 3 or 4 at best, with 2 we can be together with no problems. English realms...there are like...how many? 150 or something? With 30 or 40 is ALL what they need today, and they solved this problem.

Exactly close and merge realms and if the game grows slowly reopen some but no need for all these realms and then to force cross server on everyone.

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Which sounds great until people wonder why you're only doing 50% of the damage you should be, discover your 'outside the box' build, and kick you.

Stop it with facts. He will counter but I did that for solo stuff I bet.

[Deleted]

Yes, Vanilla specs. I so would love to be forced into Holy because the opther two is just there for shits and giggles.

[Gaidax]

*snip*

You've got to be kidding me... Vanilla and TBC - most bloody specs had such a mind-numbing dumb and simple rotations and gameplay that I am literally shocked how you can say current game is somehow "dumbed down" from that.

Like really? REALLY? In Vanilla my Prot/Ret paladin (which was as viable as licking kitchenware to clean it) was literally running around auto-attacking things... while when I was healing in raids - it was bloody spam Flash of Light until your "3" button breaks and once in a while toss Holy Lights for throughput. In TBC my Warlock's top DPS uber rotation consisted on simply casting Shadow Bolt and it was second best DPS in Sunwell, besides the Glaives rogues.

This thread is a joke.

[Deleted]

Why people think like that, that the thread is a joke? Can't people have opinion? If people like more Vanilla, fine. If people like more retail, fine. Is just AN OPINION. I like fucking anchovies in the pizza, other people hate the anchovies on the pizza, and i don't they are dumb or stupid, they just like other things.

Can people PLEASE have and opinion without being rape on the ass by the community here? They are just giving an opinion, agree or not. U can share your opinion too, to disagree or not, but don't insult to people just for think different than you.

[Gaidax]

Why people think like that, that the thread is a joke? Can't people have opinion? If people like more Vanilla, fine. If people like more retail, fine. Is just AN OPINION. I like fucking anchovies in the pizza, other people hate the anchovies on the pizza, and i don't they are dumb or stupid, they just like other things.

Can people PLEASE have and opinion without being rape on the ass by the community here? They are just giving an opinion, agree or not. U can share your opinion too, to disagree or not, but don't insult to people just for think different than you.

Having an opinion does not mean it's objectively right and in this case it is absolutely and hilariously false. Vanilla and TBC were so basic that I am literally shocked how people who actually played it can think otherwise.