The DH reign is now officially over

[goriander]

Hacov is still the strongest aoe DPS spec and in the upper middle of the pack for pure single target. To compensate for the huge aoe Havoc should literally be the lowest single target DPS spec but seems like Blizz doesn't understand that.

[Yhcti]

ST nerf I can't understand however AoE nerf was fully justified... Man that stuff was just insane. I was doubling and tripling everyone else on aoe pulls. I'm still happy with my dh, the general playstyle is still a lot more enjoyable than other specs.

Has anyone seen how the demon spikes change will affect vengeance? That's my go-to solo spec there man can't have it. ring trash :P

[Fudge]

Hopefully OP is being sarcastic. You are finally in line with other classes and not a faceroll class anymore, you should be happy that you have to have skill to be good now.

If by skill, you mean Demon Blades.. then yes.

We were not a faceroll ST spec. We were near kings of AoE, but being trash heroes doesn't make you op.

[Yarathir]

ST nerf I can't understand however AoE nerf was fully justified... Man that stuff was just insane. I was doubling and tripling everyone else on aoe pulls. I'm still happy with my dh, the general playstyle is still a lot more enjoyable than other specs.

Arguable, tbh. Havoc specialty is AoE, so of course they're strong with AoE. With single-target, even without these nerfs, they're pretty lower-tier, and we're also squishy as can be.

It's like bitching that BM hunter pets are stronger than survival hunter pets when that's their specialty.

[Fudge]

Cry me a river DHs. you are being brought in line with everyone else. QQ more.

I like that a person with literal qq hash tags as his signature is telling people to qq more

[goriander]

Arguable, tbh. Havoc specialty is AoE, so of course they're strong with AoE. With single-target, even without these nerfs, they're pretty lower-tier, and we're also squishy as can be.

It's like bitching that BM hunter pets are stronger than survival hunter pets when that's their specialty.

What are you missing here? Strong AOE+best mobility out of all classes+good survivability equals low end single target. Before the nerf DH had everything in their kit, you should be more than happy that they didn't touch your mobility.

[Yarathir]

What are you missing here? Strong AOE+best mobility out of all classes+good survivability equals low end single target. Before the nerf DH had everything in their kit, you should be more than happy that they didn't touch your mobility.

Strong AoE and good mobility.

The survivability is almost entirely dependent on said strong AoE, and the single-target is pretty lower-end.

So you're not being entirely honest. The mobility isn't so much a factor in PvE as it is in PvP. But fine, I'm totally grateful they smashed Havoc DHs in the ground, but at least they left us mobile.

[goriander]

Strong AoE and good mobility.

The survivability is almost entirely dependent on said strong AoE, and the single-target is pretty lower-end.

So you're not being entirely honest. The mobility isn't so much a factor in PvE as it is in PvP. But fine, I'm totally grateful they smashed Havoc DHs in the ground, but at least they left us mobile.

Well look at frost DK. Lower single target damage than havoc, worse survivability, weaker aoe than havoc and worse mobility than havoc. You should be glad that you're still in a good spot instead of bitching about the class being one step closer to being balanced.

Mobility play a huge role in most encounters. Even if there are specs out there with higher DPS on a target dummy they'll have a much lower uptime on the bosses than demon hunters.

[Yhcti]

I never really found our st a huge issue, and I'm not in a top 100 guild so that extra 5-10% isn't going to change the raid. I'm not happy with the nerfs but after playing my dh and playing my alts, I'd always whine when on alts due to how ridiculous my dh was. It'll get buffed back eventually, these things always happen. Seeing the other specs buffed all over the place didn't make this any sweeter though. Luckily they just buffed the lower end specs (boomkin exception)

Nerfs aside I couldn't swap even if I wanted to. I'm a sucker for mobility and double jump, glide and constantly fel rushing is simply unbeatable

[Yarathir]

Well look at frost DK. Lower single target damage than havoc, worse survivability, weaker aoe than havoc and worse mobility than havoc. You should be glad that you're still in a good spot instead of bitching about the class being one step closer to being balanced.

Comparing it to Frost DK is really, really stupid since the problem is more so that Frost DK is entirely underpowered rather than Havoc being overpowered.

Mobility makes a huge difference in most encounters. Even if there are specs out there with higher DPS on a target dummy they'll have a much lower uptime on the bosses than demon hunters.

You're overrating it, and also, you're seriously telling people to be grateful Blizzard didn't destroy what made Demon Hunters Demon Hunters? That's like telling sub rogues to be happy they at least didn't take stealth away from them after nerfing them hard.

[goriander]

Comparing it to Frost DK is really, really stupid since the problem is more so that Frost DK is entirely underpowered rather than Havoc being overpowered.


You're overrating it, and also, you're seriously telling people to be grateful Blizzard didn't destroy what made Demon Hunters Demon Hunters? That's like telling sub rogues to be happy they at least didn't take stealth away from them after nerfing them hard.

I'm just using frost DK as an example to point out that you that you're not in a bad spot after the nerfs.

And I'm not saying that DH mobility is a problem but pre-nerf they were top 8 in pure single target sims and obviously they had the strongest aoe damage out of all classes. Do you not see a problem here?

Due to their mobility demon hunters are able to keep up a higher uptime than any other DPS class and they also have strong aoe, to balance that out they absolutely need to have the lowest pure single target damage out of all classes. Did you already get so used to DH being blatantly overpowered that you're unable to see that you're still in a good spot after the nerf?

[Deleted]

I'm just using frost DK as an example to point out that you that you're not in a bad spot after the nerfs.

And I'm not saying that DH mobility is a problem but pre-nerf they were top 8 in pure single target sims and obviously they had the strongest aoe damage out of all classes. Do you not see a problem here?

Due to their mobility demon hunters are able to keep up a higher uptime than any other DPS class and they also have strong aoe, to balance that out they absolutely need to have the lowest pure single target damage out of all classes. Did you already get so used to DH being blatantly overpowered that you're unable to see that you're still in a good spot after the nerf?

Unholy death knight's says hi to this "balanced" nerfs

[Deleted]

I'm just using frost DK as an example to point out that you that you're not in a bad spot after the nerfs.

And I'm not saying that DH mobility is a problem but pre-nerf they were top 8 in pure single target sims and obviously they had the strongest aoe damage out of all classes. Do you not see a problem here?

Due to their mobility demon hunters are able to keep up a higher uptime than any other DPS class and they also have strong aoe, to balance that out they absolutely need to have the lowest pure single target damage out of all classes. Did you already get so used to DH being blatantly overpowered that you're unable to see that you're still in a good spot after the nerf?

Sorry but you are talking nonsense. The frost DK sims are not updated and Havoc is the lowest ST damage spec in the game ATM. Mobility has nothing to do with uptime since Fel Rush is used rotationally.

[Yarathir]

I'm just using frost DK as an example to point out that you that you're not in a bad spot after the nerfs.

True, but frost DKs are (rightfully) getting a buff now, so it's a pretty bad consolation.

And I'm not saying that DH mobility is a problem but pre-nerf they were top 8 in pure single target sims and obviously they had the strongest aoe damage out of all classes. Do you not see a problem here?

Naturally squishy, pretty low single-target damage, high AoE damage (their specialty), seems fair to me. Now it's debatable how HIGH their AoE damage should be, and if it's too high, but when it comes to the sheer concept of them having high AoE damage in and of itself, I don't see the issue, because that's the specialty - it's them being good at what they're meant to be good at.

Due to their mobility demon hunters are able to keep up a higher uptime than any other DPS class and they also have strong aoe, to balance that out they absolutely need to have the lowest pure single target damage out of all classes. Did you already get so used to DH being blatantly overpowered that you're unable to see that you're still in a good spot after the nerf?

AoE and single-target nerfs are quite a killer. I find your language to still be pretty dishonest. Bashing on both the strength and the weakness of havoc at the same time is overbearing in my opinion, but who cares if you can just dismiss it as "you're probably just blind because you like being overpowered." or some weighted, accusatory language like that.

[Nero Stormchester]

Yep , this was out of nowhere and clearly uncalled for . The worst thing is that nobody else got nerfed , including WW monks (who we're litteraly in the same spot as us ) >.<

[Gaidax]

... and not short enough was it.

[goriander]

True, but frost DKs are (rightfully) getting a buff now, so it's a pretty bad consolation.


Naturally squishy, pretty low single-target damage, high AoE damage (their specialty), seems fair to me. Now it's debatable how HIGH their AoE damage should be, and if it's too high, but when it comes to the sheer concept of them having high AoE damage in and of itself, I don't see the issue, because that's the specialty - it's them being good at what they're meant to be good at.


AoE and single-target nerfs are quite a killer. I find your language to still be pretty dishonest. Bashing on both the strength and the weakness of havoc at the same time is overbearing in my opinion, but who cares if you can just dismiss it as "you're probably just blind because you like being overpowered." or some weighted, accusatory language like that.

What exactly do you not like about the nerfs? I feel like these changes bring DH closer to what Blizzard intended them to be in the first place.

Do you feel that DH having a low end single target damage is not justified? Do you think that it'd be a good decision balance-wise to keep DH in the top 8 (simulated) pure single target DPS classes? (In reality they were in the top 5 because the rotation is really simple and the simulated dps doesn't differ much from actual dps unlike other classes)

[Deleted]

I feel ye. Aoe was retarded, needed the stick.

But st is overnerfed. Sims look pretty brutal. The argument that "still good on aoe = low st justified" doesn't hold water, that hasn't been the case for any class since time immemorial, except for shadow priests, who have it the other way around, which is also retarded.

[MikeBogina]

I dont get why they just dont do more diminishing returns nerfs. The people who are at the top are why these nerfs are happening, not the guys who are still progressing in Heroic/Mythic dungeons or sitting in normal raid pugs, but they will still feel it the most.

[Deleted]

Havoc
Throw Glaive damage reduced by 30%.
Fel Mastery (Talent) damage bonus to Fel Rush reduced to 30%.
Bloodlet (Talent) now deals 100% of initial Throw Glaive damage.
Fury of the Illidari (Artifact Ability) damage reduced by 20%.
Note: See below for for additional PvP tuning adjustments to Fury of the Illidari.
Balanced Blades (Artifact Trait) damage bonus to Blade Dance reduced to 3% per target.


Justified nerfs.