September 23 Hotfixes-Class Tuning discussion

[Ilir]

Well then please enlighten me then, as it seems you and others are only crying because you can, without any basis.

Mind sear is a garbage spell. When you multiply 0 by 1000000000000000000000000000000% you still get 0. Mind sear going from 10k per tick to 15 per tick won't suddenly make us strong.

They nerfed Mass Hysteria, it was warranted no one is complaining about THIS nerf because it was obvious.

BUT they nerfed Void Torrent and Dispersion. They killed the skill cap of the spec with this retarded change and they effectively reduced the amount of stacks (so damage) we get in EACH voidform STM or not.

LotV and MS were already garbage, those changes made them even worse than before (and we will actually deal less overall damage in aoe with those hotfixes).

What needed to be nerfed was StM, not the whole spec which already struggles anywhere else besides raids.

Meanwhile Fire mage did not get anything.

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more haste = more damage = more tick = more damage = more tick that can crit = more damage = more insanity = more damage = longer voidform = more damage. (this change nerfed this whole process)

[Schizoide]

Unfortunately these were all number changes. For some specs that's all they needed-- frost DK and frost mage in particular. But others have significant problems requiring mechanical changes.

[lolbubble]

They buffed frost mages, yaaaaaaaaaaaaay

[Deleted]

Demon Hunter nerfs are too harsh...

[Schizoide]

Demon Hunter nerfs are too harsh...

Demon Hunter single-target nerfs are too harsh. They deserved AE/cleave nerfs.

[Deleted]

Demon Hunter single-target nerfs are too harsh. They deserved AE/cleave nerfs.

That's what i mean. By nerfing the AoE they also ended up nerfing the single target DPS.
Wouldn't be surprised if Demon Hunter is now a low tier DPS

[Sim]

I am disappointed with the results of the Blue post on the Hunter forums. We gave them mountains of feedback on how to improve the class and we even kept it very civil. 2 of those topics broke 500 replies. Warlocks on the other hand spammed the hell out of the forums.

Results?

SV and BM get a small buff. Not enough to get them out of the basement.

Warlocks get sweaping changes, even to the spec (demo) which was preforming very well.

Guess Hunters should just spam everything to see something done =/

[Deadite]

Guess Hunters should just spam everything to see something done =/

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I have been mucking about on both my BM hunter and Frost mage thus far so i can't complain. My mage less so as going from my Hunter to my Mage is quite the mind fuck. Happy to see Frost getting some nice buff as they hit like a wet noodle atm and i am not a fan of fire.

[Alanar]

Glad to see i`m not the only one there.

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Well then please enlighten me then, as it seems you and others are only crying because you can, without any basis.

Well the thing is mindsear is a horrible spell and not worth using most of the time. Making mindsear usefull would mean a buff or 2. 50% buff seems like a big buff, but it wont matter at all.

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Mind sear is a garbage spell. When you multiply 0 by 1000000000000000000000000000000% you still get 0. Mind sear going from 10k per tick to 15 per tick won't suddenly make us strong.

They nerfed Mass Hysteria, it was warranted no one is complaining about THIS nerf because it was obvious.

BUT they nerfed Void Torrent and Dispersion. They killed the skill cap of the spec with this retarded change and they effectively reduced the amount of stacks (so damage) we get in EACH voidform STM or not.

LotV and MS were already garbage, those changes made them even worse than before (and we will actually deal less overall damage in aoe with those hotfixes).

What needed to be nerfed was StM, not the whole spec which already struggles anywhere else besides raids.

Meanwhile Fire mage did not get anything.

- - - Updated - - -

more haste = more damage = more tick = more damage = more tick that can crit = more damage = more insanity = more damage = longer voidform = more damage. (this change nerfed this whole process)

Thanks Ilir could not have explained it any better.
This Void Torrent nerf is quite sad. Now with that nerf some buff to it by making it easier to use wouldnt be farfetched I`d say. Interrupt immunity back yes please?

[Scyth]

That's what i mean. By nerfing the AoE they also ended up nerfing the single target DPS.
Wouldn't be surprised if Demon Hunter is now a low tier DPS

We most probably will be. Our single target was never that good to being with. Those nerfs are too harsh. I understand nerfing AoE damage, but was completely unnecessary to nerf single target too.

[Yizu]

Updated simcraft with SOME of the hotfixes.

Classes changed in simcraft: warlock, mage, demon hunter, fury warrior. Rest is running old tooltips. I THINK.

Are we still trusting simcraft after the actual nythendra/ursoc logs?

[Deleted]

Overall the changes seems to be good. Those that got rightfully nerfed are mad, but that is always the case. The DH crybabies that only play FOTM were expected to cry after the slight nerfs.
Elemental, Affliction and DK Frost Buffs seems a bit too low, but we gotta wait for actual data.
One thing is for sure the balancing is definitively better than before, but we are still very far off from it.

Fundamental issues haven't been solved of course, let's hope that is due with a big content patch.

[Terahertz]

They've completely gone back on their word of not wanting to nerf classes that are "overperforming" too hard due to the artifact power investment we have this expansion. I'm fucking frustrated how Blizzard can do this shit without any consequences. Any other gaming company would most likely die off if they lied this fucking much to their players. But Blizzard can do whatever they want.

I sometimes wonder what kind of group of people decides these nerfs because they do not seem professional at all.

[chronia]

They've completely gone back on their word of not wanting to nerf classes that are "overperforming" too hard due to the artifact power investment we have this expansion. I'm fucking frustrated how Blizzard can do this shit without any consequences. Any other gaming company would most likely die off if they lied this fucking much to their players. But Blizzard can do whatever they want.

I sometimes wonder what kind of group of people decides these nerfs because they do not seem professional at all.

'
Is there any actual source of this statement? The only statement i can find in a dev interview is that to don't want to overnerf specs within the same class to be worse then other specs of the same class after balancing, as in if Firemage is the strongest option for mage at the start as it was, but alot better then Frost and Arcane (which it also was) then they might bump up Frost and Arcane (or tone down fire a bit) but still make sure that Fire would be best but by a smaller margin so that in this example mages would not feel that they have wasted their AP into fire if suddenly frost or arcane would be the top dog spec for mage. Which seems exactly what they are doing with these balancing hotfixes.

I can't recall (nor find) any statement about not toning down FOTM class imbalance between classes.

[Deleted]

Nice to see the Ret buffs but it's more the playstyle of ret thats broken. Bring back Exo and Hammer.

Make judgment a buff and we will be fine (or remove it). Its not the abilities themselves that are the problem, its the mechanics tacked on top of them. I don't know why we need to juggle so many. Just keep the HP and priority system. Charges and 2HP generators already make things more complex, don't need an effin target switching destroying debuff on top of it.

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They've completely gone back on their word of not wanting to nerf classes that are "overperforming" too hard due to the artifact power investment we have this expansion. I'm fucking frustrated how Blizzard can do this shit without any consequences. Any other gaming company would most likely die off if they lied this fucking much to their players. But Blizzard can do whatever they want.

I sometimes wonder what kind of group of people decides these nerfs because they do not seem professional at all.

To be honest, it was a mistake to have said that and i am happy they didnt stick to it. Its not ok to leave a spec overpowered just cause the people who benefited from it invested AP on the weapon. They just need to be brought in line.
Think of the classes that were getting rejected for mythic + and heroic raids in this first week. I don't feel sorry for OP specs to be brought in line. FOTM should never ever be rewarded. It needs to always have the loom of nerfs on it or everyone will roll the same 1 OP spec and break the game.
If they nerfed too much they will bring them back up just like they did with the others. Whats important is the difference between lowest and biggest DPS.

[Gaidax]

Juicy, basically just as I envisioned it. OP beaten down, weak ones uplifted.

The only questionable thing is what's up with Fire Mages, I did expect a slight nerf, surprised they were left untouched, but I guess if they will prove to be nuisance over time, they will get the bat as well.

[Terahertz]

To be honest, it was a mistake to have said that and i am happy they didnt stick to it. Its not ok to leave a spec overpowered just cause the people who benefited from it invested AP on the weapon. They just need to be brought in line.
Think of the classes that were getting rejected for mythic + and heroic raids in this first week. I don't feel sorry for OP specs to be brought in line. FOTM should never ever be rewarded. It needs to always have the loom of nerfs on it or everyone will roll the same 1 OP spec and break the game.
If they nerfed too much they will bring them back up just like they did with the others. Whats important is the difference between lowest and biggest DPS.

Take a look at the DH nerfs. That isn't being brought in line, that's being gutted. What's worse is that those nerfs also affect DH ST DPS pretty hard without seemingly any compensation.

Blizzard has a huge history of "bringing secs in line with others" when in reality they're gutting the spec to the point nobody wants to play them anymore and it seems like they're doing it again.

Also about blizzard's statement it's even more so relevant to classes rather than individual specs. Especially for classes that only have 1 DPS spec it's even more punishing to be gutted to the point where you have to re-roll to another class and start over your AP research from scratch.

[Deleted]

Take a look at the DH nerfs. That isn't being brought in line, that's being gutted. What's worse is that those nerfs also affect DH ST DPS pretty hard without seemingly any compensation.

Blizzard has a huge history of "bringing secs in line with others" when in reality they're gutting the spec to the point nobody wants to play them anymore and it seems like they're doing it again.

Also about blizzard's statement it's even more so relevant to classes rather than individual specs. Especially for classes that only have 1 DPS spec it's even more punishing to be gutted to the point where you have to re-roll to another class and start over your AP research from scratch.

DH's were far and above everyone on logs. A big nerf was necessary. I won't make the conclusion it was too much until we got logs from it. We all know simcraft has failed us this expansion. It requires too much work to keep up to date.

[Struggle]

Farewell and adieu to ye Vengeance Demon Hunters....

[Rawrajishxc]

I don't think Rogues needed any buffs, and I think Aff Locks still need more work to up their damage.

You must not be a Rogue main. The other two specs needed buffs and even then I'm still not sure if it's enough.