Tulsa Polic Shoot Unarmed Black Man with Hands Up.

[Taneras]

That's where training comes into play. A well-trained officer will prevent the situation from reaching that point. Remember how all of those videos involved a completely untrained media activist playing the role of the cop?

I saw a study, and I could be bothered to look it back up if some people are really interested, but it showed that black people were over represented when it came to police using force (hands on, tasers, pepper spray, cuffs for detainment, etc.) and white people were way over represented when it came to being shot.

One theory behind this odd data spread was that blacks are shot less frequent because of the extra force applied early on when coming into contact with police, preventing the situation from escalating into a situation where the officer felt lethal force would be needed. And since the same didn't happen with whites, situations were much more likely to escalate into a situation where the officer felt lethal force would be needed.

Had they tasered Crutcher as he ignored police orders and walked to his vehicle, even though his hands were up, he never would have gotten to the vehicle to place himself in a bad situation. But had that happened, I'd bet most of the people in this thread that instantly, before anything besides a video was shown, deemed the officer a murderer, would still be highly upset the guy was tasered in the first place.

Based on the study I mentioned and the theory behind why the data came out the way it did, perhaps we should reconsider how we look at non-lethal force. Of course its a case by case basis and I'm not advocating that a police officer simply pepper spray you at the start of a traffic stop just because.

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while in the US, you can go to private prison literal hell for multiple decades for relatively minor offenses...

Out of interest, what minor offenses lead to multiple decades (20+ years) in prison here in the states?

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This is what happens when you use selective bias and only focus on the interactions between police and civilians that display brutality. Are you even aware of what you're doing? It'd be no better than showing a string of videos were black lives matter activists are rioting, burning, and assaulting their community.

[Magicpot]

Out of interest, what minor offenses lead to multiple decades (20+ years) in prison here in the states?

In some states, carrying weed around 3 times.

I don't do drugs at all, but even to me thats super fucking crazy.

And some of the mandatory minimums they make up is just a pure crock of shit.

Resisting arrest a felony? Really?


Point being, if the penal system is so heavily geared towards punishment vs rehabilitation, people inherently become more standoffish. If I can go to jail for years for some trumped up charge (resisting arrest for instance) then what incentive do I have to comply vs try to get away? Thats right, none. And don't get me started on the practice of DA's to slap on every single charge they can think of to get a better negotiating position for plea deals. Thats all so insane to an outsider.

Why is it that this isn't such a problem anywhere else? Besides gun control, what is the difference between germany and the US that is apparently so massive as to make everyone instantly tense when talking to a cop? I've had maybe 5 interactions with cops in my whole life, and at no point did it even enter my mind that they might hurt me, and at no point did they threaten me or were even rude to me.

The only even sort of questionable thing I ever encountered was when they asked to search my backpack when I was cycling home, and even then they informed me that I had the right to refuse with guaranteed no consequences for me.

So why is that so hard? What is it that turns what should be a friendly and normal interaction like this into a life and death scenario? If I see someone mulling around like they're high on something on the street, I would call an ambulance, not arrest them. Wtf is that?

[Taneras]

In some states, carrying weed around 3 times.

Which states give you 20+ years for a 3rd simple possession of Marijuana?

Resisting arrest a felony? Really?

Depending on the severity, why not? Here's an example from Arizona:

"A person commits resisting arrest by intentionally preventing or attempting to prevent a person reasonably known to him to be a peace officer, acting under color of such peace officer's official authority, from effecting an arrest by: (1). Using or threatening to use physical force against the peace officer or another (2) Using any other means creating a substantial risk of causing physical injury to the peace officer or another (3) Engaging in passive resistance. B. Resisting arrest pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 1 or 2 of this section is a class 6 felony. Resisting arrest pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 3 of this section is a class 1 misdemeanor. C. For the purposes of this section, "passive resistance" means a nonviolent physical act or failure to act that is intended to impede, hinder or delay the effecting of an arrest."

"13-2508. Resisting arrest; classification; definition

A. A person commits resisting arrest by intentionally preventing or attempting to prevent a person reasonably known to him to be a peace officer, acting under color of such peace officer's official authority, from effecting an arrest by:

1. Using or threatening to use physical force against the peace officer or another.

2. Using any other means creating a substantial risk of causing physical injury to the peace officer or another.

3. Engaging in passive resistance.

B. Resisting arrest pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 1 or 2 of this section is a class 6 felony. Resisting arrest pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 3 of this section is a class 1 misdemeanor.

C. For the purposes of this section, "passive resistance" means a nonviolent physical act or failure to act that is intended to impede, hinder or delay the effecting of an arrest."

Bolded = felony, non-bolded = misdemeanor.

Making resisting arrest a lightly punishable offense, no matter the severity, will only encourage people to risk getting away since failure to do so isn't a big deal.

Point being, if the penal system is so heavily geared towards punishment vs rehabilitation, people inherently become more standoffish.

I think simply calling it "punishment" is a bit too much. While it certainly is a punishment, its also meant to be a deterrent.

[Magicpot]

Which states give you 20+ years for a 3rd simple possession of Marijuana?



Depending on the severity, why not? Here's an example from Arizona:

"A person commits resisting arrest by intentionally preventing or attempting to prevent a person reasonably known to him to be a peace officer, acting under color of such peace officer's official authority, from effecting an arrest by: (1). Using or threatening to use physical force against the peace officer or another (2) Using any other means creating a substantial risk of causing physical injury to the peace officer or another (3) Engaging in passive resistance. B. Resisting arrest pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 1 or 2 of this section is a class 6 felony. Resisting arrest pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 3 of this section is a class 1 misdemeanor. C. For the purposes of this section, "passive resistance" means a nonviolent physical act or failure to act that is intended to impede, hinder or delay the effecting of an arrest."

"13-2508. Resisting arrest; classification; definition

A. A person commits resisting arrest by intentionally preventing or attempting to prevent a person reasonably known to him to be a peace officer, acting under color of such peace officer's official authority, from effecting an arrest by:

1. Using or threatening to use physical force against the peace officer or another.

2. Using any other means creating a substantial risk of causing physical injury to the peace officer or another.

3. Engaging in passive resistance.

B. Resisting arrest pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 1 or 2 of this section is a class 6 felony. Resisting arrest pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 3 of this section is a class 1 misdemeanor.

C. For the purposes of this section, "passive resistance" means a nonviolent physical act or failure to act that is intended to impede, hinder or delay the effecting of an arrest."

Bolded = felony, non-bolded = misdemeanor.

Making resisting arrest a lightly punishable offense, no matter the severity, will only encourage people to risk getting away since failure to do so isn't a big deal.



I think simply calling it "punishment" is a bit too much. While it certainly is a punishment, its also meant to be a deterrent.

"Deterrent" as if that ever stopped anybody. Its all about the incentive. All that making punishments harsher does is make sure that people are more afraid of being caught, so they'll go to greater lenghts to avoid that, up to and including attacking or running away from a cop.

As for the three strikes laws, many states have them, most of them require the third strike to be a "serious or violent felony" but guess what, carrying enough weed so the prosecutors assume "intent to sell" does that for you in most cases.

Here is an article about it: https://www.thehillscenter.com/drug-...e-strikes-law/

Most notably:

People with two previous felony convictions, however, are sentenced to life in prison, with no possibility of parole for at least twenty-five years.

Which can happen to non violent drug offenders. Let that sink in. Some people are currently sitting life for a non violent drug offense.

[Taneras]

"Deterrent" as if that ever stopped anybody.

So you're telling me that making driving while intoxicated being punishable by law has never deterred a single person from driving while intoxicated?

Murder being punishable by law has never deterred someone from a single person from killing someone else?

Robbery being punishable by law has never deterred a single person from stealing something they wanted?

I will say this, Marijuana laws are what keep me from smoking. So these laws are a deterrent for at least one person, me.

[Themius]

So you're telling me that making driving while intoxicated being punishable by law has never deterred a single person from driving while intoxicated?

Murder being punishable by law has never deterred someone from a single person from killing someone else?

Robbery being punishable by law has never deterred a single person from stealing something they wanted?

I will say this, Marijuana laws are what keep me from smoking. So these laws are a deterrent for at least one person, me.

The death penalty hasn't deterred crimes.

Harsh penalties for drugs hasn't deterred drug users.

Who gives a shit about you? It's not about you, it's about what generally happens.

[Taneras]

The death penalty hasn't deterred crimes.

Harsh penalties for drugs hasn't deterred drug users.

Who gives a shit about you? It's not about you, it's about what generally happens.

He made the claim that it hasn't deterred anyone, it's deterred me so that claim is false.

Also, prove your claims.

[Themius]

He made the claim that it hasn't deterred anyone, it's deterred me so that claim is false.

Also, prove your claims.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/stud...tive-deterrent
https://nccadp.org/death-penalty-iss...o-deter-crime/

Hell in NC deaths declined when executions stopped.

Also people on drugs are addicts... they have a sickness...

[Taneras]

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/stud...tive-deterrent

"88% of criminologists do not believe the death penalty is an effective deterrent"

Having no deterrent value (which is what was claimed) and being an ineffective deterrent are two completely different claims.

https://nccadp.org/death-penalty-iss...o-deter-crime/

Hell in NC deaths declined when executions stopped.

Considering murders are dropping nationally over time its not surprising that murders in North Carolina are lower today than they were years prior.

Also people on drugs are addicts... they have a sickness...

Not all drugs are addictive, see the most commonly used one - Marijuana.

Moreover, drug laws are very likely keeping people who aren't currently addicts from becoming addicts.

Also I don't want to turn this into a death penalty vs life without parole (or whatever other alternative you favor). My original comment was simply about punishments also having a deterrent value. That could apply to the death penalty, but would also apply to other punishments for murder.

[Themius]

"88% of criminologists do not believe the death penalty is an effective deterrent"

Having no deterrent value (which is what was claimed) and being an ineffective deterrent are two completely different claims.



Considering murders are dropping nationally over time its not surprising that murders in North Carolina are lower today than they were years prior.



Not all drugs are addictive, see the most commonly used one - Marijuana.

Moreover, drug laws are very likely keeping people who aren't currently addicts from becoming addicts.

Also I don't want to turn this into a death penalty vs life without parole (or whatever other alternative you favor). My original comment was simply about punishments also having a deterrent value. That could apply to the death penalty, but would also apply to other punishments for murder.

you don't think weed is addictive? You don't think the high it can give you is... addictive? hah....

[Taneras]

you don't think weed is addictive? You don't think the high it can give you is... addictive? hah....

It's not chemically addictive like some other drugs are.

People can find any range of activities addicting...

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/my-stran...-toilet-paper/

So yea, that could be true for weed in some instances, just like it could be true for eating toilet paper in the instance highlighted above.

The difference I was pointing out was chemical addiction, something weed doesn't have.

Most people can smoke a few blunts and stop easily.

Most people cannot use Heroine a few times and stop easily.

So when it comes to drug laws, addiction would play a role for some, and I'd imagine a lot of the sentencing for the addictive drugs does include rehab or some sort, but the biggest offender (weed) isn't addictive. Just saying that you can't use that defense against *ALL* drug laws.

[NineSpine]

Moreover, drug laws are very likely keeping people who aren't currently addicts from becoming addicts.

Prove it, please.

[Wells]

Having no deterrent value (which is what was claimed) and being an ineffective deterrent are two completely different claims.

Ummm.....what?

[PizzaSHARK]

Given how big a clusterfuck Kent State was, it's understandable.

Yeah. So why aren't our law enforcement forces across the country doing the same thing after how many cases of excessive force and police brutality are cropping up?

[Deleted]

I wonder if these officers just go into some sort of frenzy mode or something.

It seems liek they don't listen anymore as soon as they pull their gun and can't be reasonend with.
Seems more like these people are unfit for duty than it being about racism.

[lockedout]

There is dashcam footage and helicopter footage of the incident. Even the chopper pilot said to use a taser but the cop doesn't. The cop that pulled the trigger is most likely going in for murder. It was in response to a broken down vehicle, nothing else. My question is, why did they need 4 cop cars for an "abandoned vehicle" call?

Warning Graphic in the videos.
http://thegrio.com/2016/09/19/video-...-tulsa-police/

Just going to post the link so people don't watch it if they don't want to.

Misleading title he didn't have his hands up when he was shot.

[Kuntantee]

First degree murder. The officers who shot him should spent rest of their life in prison, or put down (depending on the state).

[lockedout]

you don't think weed is addictive?

It's not addictive, or then everything in the world is addictive. Take your pick.

[Taneras]

Prove it, please.

There are over 300 million people here in the states. All it takes is one person not doing those drugs because they're made illegal for what I've said to be true.

If you're going to play dumb, don't play your hand quite so hard.

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First degree murder.

If she was tried with first degree murder she'd walk - easy. No way you'd even come close to clearing that bar.

Manslaughter is what she's been charged with and its the appropriate charge.

[Kuntantee]

If she was tried with first degree murder she'd walk - easy. No way you'd even come close to clearing that bar.

Manslaughter is what she's been charged with and its the appropriate charge.

Manslaughter? First degree murder is intentional manslaughter. That's what it is. They wanted to kill him and they killed him.