Britain will veto EU army, says Defence Secretary

[Noradin]

Because we would not have to worry about Europe anymore.

Uh no, you would have to start worrying about Europe actually, because without Russia they have less reason to ally themselves with the you as closely.

[Kalis]

Uh no, you would have to start worrying about Europe actually, because without Russia they have less reason to ally themselves with the you as closely.

You think that an EU Army would become a threat to the US?

[Noradin]

You think that an EU Army would become a threat to the US?

Did I say that?

No, I do not think they would become a threat to the US of their own doing, but I suspect the US would feel threathened anyway if there are armed forces with no antagonist that is clearly visible to them. I have enough experience with the higher ups in their military that I know they are always scared of something and if they cannot see anything to be scared about they start to panic and make something up. That is what they get paid for after all. (Yes this is a generalisation and as such not true for everyone but it is worryingly close to the truth for many, nonetheless.)

So if Russia were to disappear there would be one less clearly visible target for the European forces to guard against and thus less reason the US could see for European countries to have their forces that they (the US) approve of. Because one thing we cannot forget about the US military is that they do not trust their allies.
If you have a joint operation with them and tell them the building they want to bomb is a hospital or the Embassy of China, then they will go ahead anyway because they assume they know better and if you disagree with them then you are problably not trustworthy. And later when the press catches wind of it they will claim there was no information and nobody warned them. (And yes, that has happened several times in recent times.)

[Kalis]

Did I say that?

You said the US "would have to start worrying about Europe".

No, I do not think they would become a threat to the US of their own doing, but I suspect the US would feel threathened anyway if there are armed forces with no antagonist that is clearly visible to them. I have enough experience with the higher ups in their military that I know they are always scared of something and if they cannot see anything to be scared about they start to panic and make something up. That is what they get paid for after all. (Yes this is a generalisation and as such not true for everyone but it is worryingly close to the truth for many, nonetheless.)

So if Russia were to disappear there would be one less clearly visible target for the European forces to guard against and thus less reason the US could see for European countries to have their forces that they (the US) approve of. Because one thing we cannot forget about the US military is that they do not trust their allies.
If you have a joint operation with them and tell them the building they want to bomb is a hospital or the Embassy of China, then they will go ahead anyway because they assume they know better and if you disagree with them then you are problably not trustworthy. (And yes, that has happened several times in recent times.)

Why would the heads of any EU Army not want a close alliance with the most powerful military nation in the world and one that they have been closely allied to for decades? Seems daft to me, they are typically the sorts of people you want to maintain very close and friendly relations with.

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Neither is the US army a threat to the EU.

Nobody suggested it was, nor is that relevant.

Mostly because defensive capabilities heavily outweigh offensive capabilities in modern warfare.

The fake military officer has spoken.

[Deleted]

As an excuse for why we can't have single payer health care, higher minimum wage, more government jobs to fix infrastructure, etx.

"We can't afford to give our country the benefits most first world nations enjoy, we're too busy playing world police."

You have a shitty system and that's why its unaffordable, you already spend about twice as much as other western nations on healthcare.

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You think that an EU Army would become a threat to the US?

The EU is the only entity that could conceivably be a threat, but the more plausible scenario is simply that the EU will have their own priorities which may conflict with the US's priorities, a current rift (though its clearly not a biggie) is Iran - Most of the EU is much more positive, as compared to the US, who are more in line with the Sunni GCC.

[Deleted]

So if Russia were to disappear there would be one less clearly visible target for the European forces to guard against and thus less reason the US could see for European countries to have their forces that they (the US) approve of. Because one thing we cannot forget about the US military is that they do not trust their allies.

This is also worth considering, how would Russia 'disappear' ?
The likely outcome given the chaos and clusterfuck waiting to happen, is simply that the EU is forced to buy it - Just like the rest of the Eastern EU 25 years ago.
This would be a very marked shift away from US Hegemony.

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I thought that this website is about games, not about real world shit that I can see at any moment when I turn on TV. Sorry if I'm wrong about that.

This is GenOT.
You can find anything here.

[Noradin]

You said the US "would have to start worrying about Europe".

Yes, I offered that as the slightly less improbable option out of two in the case that Russia disappeared overnight.
The other being that the US would stop worrying about Europe entirely (Kellhound proposed that one).

[Kellhound]

Uh no, you would have to start worrying about Europe actually, because without Russia they have less reason to ally themselves with the you as closely.

They are too disjointed to be an issue really.

[Noradin]

Nobody suggested it was, nor is that relevant.

You did bring it up.

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Why would the heads of any EU Army not want a close alliance with the most powerful military nation in the world and one that they have been closely allied to for decades? Seems daft to me, they are typically the sorts of people you want to maintain very close and friendly relations with.

Yes, to you, to me, and to most people on both continents, but that is not what this was about.
This was about whether the US would suddenly "stop worrying about Europe" if "Russia disappeared overnight". And no, they wouldn't.

[Teleros]

Good thing they are leaving soon.

*Shakes fist at May* Hurry up and invoke Article 50 already !

(Actually, her government has said by the end of 2016 / early 2017 at the latest, so it shouldn't be too long to wait...)

We need this army badly.

Certainly the EU states need to spend more on defence in general, and stop hiding under the US defence umbrella (especially when President Trump acts rather more isolationist*)... but I don't think an EU army is the answer.

There are two problems here IMHO:

1. Nobody in Europe wants to shift money from the welfare state to defence. Not many votes in doing so, though I guess perhaps some parties more like our (UK's) own Conservatives might see gains in doing so. Not sure how many parties are as right-wing as them though in Europe. Point is, coughing up the money for serious defence spending will be hard to do.

2. 27 countries (post-Article 50 Brexit etc) with 24 official languages (assuming they keep English), long histories of conflict, different ways of doing things... oh, and lots of international divisions in the here and now. This will not make for a strong & cohesive army, period.

Now imagine you're Putin, sitting over there in the Kremlin. You know the Hungarians, Poles etc are suspicious as heck of much of the EU (eg: immigration). You know many countries are probably worried about German domination, especially with the UK gone and France having plenty of internal troubles of its own (eg: Le Pen, who says she admires you). You also just happen to have lots of experience stoking ethnic / nationalist sentiments. An effective EU Army would pose a threat to you merely by existing (it's not like the EU is going to station it on its western borders now, and much of the EU is in NATO, and therefore tied militarily to the USA :P ).

If I were Putin, I'd see this as a great opportunity to screw the EU over. Make some meaningful overtures of peace to the Baltic and East European states and support them re the endless invasion from the Middle East that Germany dialled up to 11. In return, encourage their worst fears about an EU Army etc.

The result is likely to be a paper tiger: brigades that are ill-equipped and that don't work well together, are hobbled by bureaucracy and interfering politicians, etc etc etc.

Incidentally, other events may make it hard to get an EU Army. If Marine Le Pen is successful in France, I really doubt she'll be in favour of an EU Army, given she wants the franc back, plus Frexit. It's certainly plausible IMHO that after the UK leaves the EU, other EU member states kill the plan.

= + =

* Trump's openly talked about scrapping NATO before now, and looks set to win the presidency. Since then he's walked back some of the talk re NATO, on the basis that it could be a really useful counter-terrorism body, but regardless, this should scare any European leader (plus Turkey) who has been counting on the USA to defend them in the event of a war. Remember, his foreign policy position is actually an anti-war one, with the exception of doing something about the mad mullahs terrorising Iraq & Syria.

[Kellhound]

Neither is the US army a threat to the EU.

Mostly because defensive capabilities heavily outweigh offensive capabilities in modern warfare.

Defense has always had the upper hand, it doesnt have more or less now than it traditionally has.

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This is also worth considering, how would Russia 'disappear' ?
The likely outcome given the chaos and clusterfuck waiting to happen, is simply that the EU is forced to buy it - Just like the rest of the Eastern EU 25 years ago.
This would be a very marked shift away from US Hegemony.

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This is GenOT.
You can find anything here.

Its a dream, the land and the people, "poof" gone.

[Ulmita]

*Shakes fist at May* Hurry up and invoke Article 50 already !

(Actually, her government has said by the end of 2016 / early 2017 at the latest, so it shouldn't be too long to wait...)

Good!

Certainly the EU states need to spend more on defence in general, and stop hiding under the US defence umbrella (especially when President Trump acts rather more isolationist*)... but I don't think an EU army is the answer.

There are two problems here IMHO:

1. Nobody in Europe wants to shift money from the welfare state to defence. Not many votes in doing so, though I guess perhaps some parties more like our (UK's) own Conservatives might see gains in doing so. Not sure how many parties are as right-wing as them though in Europe. Point is, coughing up the money for serious defence spending will be hard to do.

2. 27 countries (post-Article 50 Brexit etc) with 24 official languages (assuming they keep English), long histories of conflict, different ways of doing things... oh, and lots of international divisions in the here and now. This will not make for a strong & cohesive army, period.

Now imagine you're Putin, sitting over there in the Kremlin. You know the Hungarians, Poles etc are suspicious as heck of much of the EU (eg: immigration). You know many countries are probably worried about German domination, especially with the UK gone and France having plenty of internal troubles of its own (eg: Le Pen, who says she admires you). You also just happen to have lots of experience stoking ethnic / nationalist sentiments. An effective EU Army would pose a threat to you merely by existing (it's not like the EU is going to station it on its western borders now, and much of the EU is in NATO, and therefore tied militarily to the USA :P ).

If I were Putin, I'd see this as a great opportunity to screw the EU over. Make some meaningful overtures of peace to the Baltic and East European states and support them re the endless invasion from the Middle East that Germany dialled up to 11. In return, encourage their worst fears about an EU Army etc.

The result is likely to be a paper tiger: brigades that are ill-equipped and that don't work well together, are hobbled by bureaucracy and interfering politicians, etc etc etc.

Incidentally, other events may make it hard to get an EU Army. If Marine Le Pen is successful in France, I really doubt she'll be in favour of an EU Army, given she wants the franc back, plus Frexit. It's certainly plausible IMHO that after the UK leaves the EU, other EU member states kill the plan.

= + =

* Trump's openly talked about scrapping NATO before now, and looks set to win the presidency. Since then he's walked back some of the talk re NATO, on the basis that it could be a really useful counter-terrorism body, but regardless, this should scare any European leader (plus Turkey) who has been counting on the USA to defend them in the event of a war. Remember, his foreign policy position is actually an anti-war one, with the exception of doing something about the mad mullahs terrorising Iraq & Syria.

From my perspective an EU army is the way forward. Sure there will be issues at the start, sure we will need to work hard to make this happen but it is very possible to make one.

You see EU has experience from NATO and we can continue on the same line. Speaking of NATO i personally believe that the alliance has served its purpose and it needs to be replaced by something more meaningful.

Lastly, i don't believe Putin is about to attack anyone any time soon. If he does something it would be to propose some kind of cooperation with Europe and / or alliance. Russia always wanted to be allies with Europe. Americans and British it was what was always standing in the middle.

I am excited, very. I can't wait for this project to take off, i have been calling for an EU army from 2012-13 in these forums.

[Kalis]

You did bring it up.

No I didn't. Nobody did.

Yes, to you, to me, and to most people on both continents, but that is not what this was about.
This was about whether the US would suddenly "stop worrying about Europe" if "Russia disappeared overnight". And no, they wouldn't.

When you say worry about Europe, are you talking about defence of Europe, or Europe as a potential rival? Your initial answer seemed to suggest the latter, but your subsequent answers infer the former.

[Deleted]

*Shakes fist at May* Hurry up and invoke Article 50 already !

(Actually, her government has said by the end of 2016 / early 2017 at the latest, so it shouldn't be too long to wait...)


Certainly the EU states need to spend more on defence in general, and stop hiding under the US defence umbrella (especially when President Trump acts rather more isolationist*)... but I don't think an EU army is the answer.

There are two problems here IMHO:

1. Nobody in Europe wants to shift money from the welfare state to defence. Not many votes in doing so, though I guess perhaps some parties more like our (UK's) own Conservatives might see gains in doing so. Not sure how many parties are as right-wing as them though in Europe. Point is, coughing up the money for serious defence spending will be hard to do.

2. 27 countries (post-Article 50 Brexit etc) with 24 official languages (assuming they keep English), long histories of conflict, different ways of doing things... oh, and lots of international divisions in the here and now. This will not make for a strong & cohesive army, period.

Now imagine you're Putin, sitting over there in the Kremlin. You know the Hungarians, Poles etc are suspicious as heck of much of the EU (eg: immigration). You know many countries are probably worried about German domination, especially with the UK gone and France having plenty of internal troubles of its own (eg: Le Pen, who says she admires you). You also just happen to have lots of experience stoking ethnic / nationalist sentiments. An effective EU Army would pose a threat to you merely by existing (it's not like the EU is going to station it on its western borders now, and much of the EU is in NATO, and therefore tied militarily to the USA :P ).

If I were Putin, I'd see this as a great opportunity to screw the EU over. Make some meaningful overtures of peace to the Baltic and East European states and support them re the endless invasion from the Middle East that Germany dialled up to 11. In return, encourage their worst fears about an EU Army etc.

The result is likely to be a paper tiger: brigades that are ill-equipped and that don't work well together, are hobbled by bureaucracy and interfering politicians, etc etc etc.

Incidentally, other events may make it hard to get an EU Army. If Marine Le Pen is successful in France, I really doubt she'll be in favour of an EU Army, given she wants the franc back, plus Frexit. It's certainly plausible IMHO that after the UK leaves the EU, other EU member states kill the plan.

= + =

* Trump's openly talked about scrapping NATO before now, and looks set to win the presidency. Since then he's walked back some of the talk re NATO, on the basis that it could be a really useful counter-terrorism body, but regardless, this should scare any European leader (plus Turkey) who has been counting on the USA to defend them in the event of a war. Remember, his foreign policy position is actually an anti-war one, with the exception of doing something about the mad mullahs terrorising Iraq & Syria.

Well... Boris Johnson has said article 50 may be invoked early 2017 but no one has decided to back his claims.

[Kellhound]

Good!




From my perspective an EU army is the way forward. Sure there will be issues at the start, sure we will need to work hard to make this happen but it is very possible to make one.

You see EU has experience from NATO and we can continue on the same line. Speaking of NATO i personally believe that the alliance has served its purpose and it needs to be replaced by something more meaningful.

Lastly, i don't believe Putin is about to attack anyone any time soon. If he does something it would be to propose some kind of cooperation with Europe and / or alliance. Russia always wanted to be allies with Europe. Americans and British it was what was always standing in the middle.

I am excited, very. I can't wait for this project to take off, i have been calling for an EU army from 2012-13 in these forums.

Remove NATO and Europe loses its military backbone. Only 2 European countries have the ability to stand on their own but they lack the ability to provide the structure needed for larger forces.

[Ulmita]

Remove NATO and Europe loses its military backbone. Only 2 European countries have the ability to stand on their own but they lack the ability to provide the structure needed for larger forces.

To stand their own against who dude? Are you imagining aliens attacking planet earth or something? Besides, from the common budget we can create a better army.

[Deleted]

*Shakes fist at May* Hurry up and invoke Article 50 already !

(Actually, her government has said by the end of 2016 / early 2017 at the latest, so it shouldn't be too long to wait...)

Waiting patiently.

Certainly the EU states need to spend more on defence in general, and stop hiding under the US defence umbrella (especially when President Trump acts rather more isolationist*)... but I don't think an EU army is the answer.

It certainly is.

1. Nobody in Europe wants to shift money from the welfare state to defence. Not many votes in doing so, though I guess perhaps some parties more like our (UK's) own Conservatives might see gains in doing so. Not sure how many parties are as right-wing as them though in Europe. Point is, coughing up the money for serious defence spending will be hard to do.

You seem to have no understanding of how much redundancy the EU has in procurement alone.

2. 27 countries (post-Article 50 Brexit etc) with 24 official languages (assuming they keep English), long histories of conflict, different ways of doing things... oh, and lots of international divisions in the here and now. This will not make for a strong & cohesive army, period.

You know the EU battle groups already exist?

If I were Putin, I'd see this as a great opportunity to screw the EU over. Make some meaningful overtures of peace to the Baltic and East European states and support them re the endless invasion from the Middle East that Germany dialled up to 11. In return, encourage their worst fears about an EU Army etc.

except of course the Eastern Eu are the ones paranoid about Russia and the west that cares less.

Incidentally, other events may make it hard to get an EU Army. If Marine Le Pen is successful in France, I really doubt she'll be in favour of an EU Army, given she wants the franc back, plus Frexit. It's certainly plausible IMHO that after the UK leaves the EU, other EU member states kill the plan.

Frexit is not something the french want.

who has been counting on the USA to defend them in the event of a war. Remember, his foreign policy position is actually an anti-war one, with the exception of doing something about the mad mullahs terrorising Iraq & Syria.

This is an argument for the Eu army.

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Remove NATO and Europe loses its military backbone. Only 2 European countries have the ability to stand on their own but they lack the ability to provide the structure needed for larger forces.

Which is why the EU army would be necessary yes?

[Kellhound]

To stand their own against who dude? Are you imagining aliens attacking planet earth or something? Besides, from the common budget we can create a better army.

I know you are clueless about military matters, but really? In C4ISR alone Europe is massively dependent on the US, then there is strategic lift, etc.....

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Waiting patiently.



It certainly is.

You seem to have no understanding of how much redundancy the EU has in procurement alone.

You know the EU battle groups already exist?

except of course the Eastern Eu are the ones paranoid about Russia and the west that cares less.

Frexit is not something the french want.

This is an argument for the Eu army.

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Which is why the EU army would be necessary yes?

EU battle groups require NATO support.

An EU army would be needed if NATO dissolved, but until that happens there is no reason for one.

[Ulmita]

I know you are clueless about military matters, but really? In C4ISR alone Europe is massively dependent on the US, then there is strategic lift, etc.....

Kell take a deep breath. Europe will be fine dude. Worry not about it. I know you are butthurt because when i was calling for an EU army you were calling me a dreamer, and that US will not be the center of the universe if EU moves away from NATO but hey you should be happy. Its a step closer to federalization.

[Kellhound]

Kell take a deep breath. Europe will be fine dude. Worry not about it. I know you are butthurt because when i was calling for an EU army you were calling me a dreamer, and that US will not be the center of the universe if EU moves away from NATO but hey you should be happy. Its a step closer to federalization.

I know the real reason you want to see NATO gone and Greece protected by the EU, Turkey. At least be honest about it.
A unified EU army will not happen until people see themselves as European Unioners before seeing themselves as German, French, etc.