After 12 years, why do people still refer to grind as "content"?

[SteveRocks]

Perhaps the issue there is that archaic mechanics need to be changed to adapt to a new world, much like how you cant continue to think the way you did about the world of old.

Grinding definatley -has- become a dated method of content continueation, its not healthy for the future of any MMO anymore, as it usually leads to stagnation of interests and people just not -caring- enough to progress.

There are better more streamlined ways of progressing content, things honestly needed to be brought back, like the way Wrath did things.

Example: World Questing is a softcore version of the way Wrath did things, in Wrath, if you farmed heroic dungeons enough you would -definatley- get the content you needed to progress to further content. But what made Wrath effective, is that you could do it -when- you wanted and to some extent -how-.

If I wanted to get gear, I could farm dungeons, I could tabard farm rep in the dungeons aswell, I could do dailies, I could go to Wintergrasp for pvp gear and do the pvp raid, I could farm BG's and Arena's, but the thing was, I didnt at any point feel like I was barred off by RNG based Grinds.

See thats the issue with Legion and indeed with most of recent WoW, RNG has become -so- dominant that theres no -fixed- way to progress. The grind would be okay, if it was at least, relevent.

But when your doing content 10 times over only to get no loot, no progress, then yes, its not surprising at all that people are quitting and -not understanding- the mechanics.

Because its dated, mate.

1. People are not quitting. Legion so far has been very successful. Your opinion is in the minority.
2. There are more ways to get gear in Legion than there has ever been (including Wrath).
3. The RNG system has not changed since the launch of the game so I don't know what you're going on about.

It sounds like you're just unlucky, but if you can't get gear which is the only aspect of the game you mention as "content," then you are doing something wrong because it takes very minimal effort to do so. If you're complaining that your gear isn't maxed out BiS right now then durr it's not supposed to be.

If the developers handed you all the gear you wanted then you'd be complaining that there was nothing to do in the game.

*Just wanted to add that content "grinds," are not an archaic mechanic. That's how an RPG works: Time Commitent=Rewards. You don't hear people saying "Man when are the developers of Chess going to update their archaic mechanics and enter the new world?"

[Daffan]

Yeah, because every wq is going to drop titanforged gear with the stats you need amirite? You'll find that you are far behind guilds that clear mythic while you go about your WQ's hoping that your gear actually procs that high. Give me a break. lol

I never specified it was only WQ.

Secondly, not everyone goes for Mythic raids, or else there would be no such thing as Content Drought in Cata/WoD/MoP because everybody would have Mythic as 'content' left to do. Instead, they just get the best easiest gear, skip/zerg all the content and stop. Ultimately it doesn't even matter because when the next patch comes out, Mythic is made obsolete anyway.

[Topornic]

Just because a game is MMO-RPG it doesn't mean it Must have lot of grinding, there isn't any definition that says so. The biggest reason for any game to be grindy, is that it's simply much easier to tell people to repeat same content, than create something completely new.

Content = something new to do
Grind = repeating same trivial Content over and over

For example I don't consider progression raiding as grind, even if I have to wipe 300 times on same difficult boss, but if I have to kill same easy boss 300 times just to get some piece of gear, that's what I call grind. Some people may like grinding, but there are many people who don't like grinding but still enjoy parts of the game that are less grindy.

That is what I am talking about; I didn't mean wiping dozens of times a grind, but farming raids as grind eventually. As long as you are progressing you see raid as content. But as soon as you've beaten all bosses and your guild has this raid on farming schedule and do alt runs it becomes grind. You can't expect quality content every time you run out of new things to do.

[Deleted]

Difficulty * Quantity = Consumption Time

The goal is to make Time to Develop < Consumption Time
This is only impossible when Difficulty or Quantity = 0, like Difficulty is.

It's not that hard, simple math. You're wrong, but go ahead and keep on parroting developers like you know what you're talking about, they'd never lie or make mistakes.

What has difficulty to do with quests or pvp, for example? It's obvious that we are talking about a self-evolving world, that changes every day.

[TheVaryag]

Mats farming
Rep farming
Artifact farming
Level farming
Gold farming
Gear grinding
Achievement farming (the pointless shit, i.e. anything almost everything not PVP)
Daily farming
etc

Any action which consists of repetitive actions which require no real personal skill (aside from knowing your class combos and not to stand in fire) nor offer any challenge, which simply required time wasted to be completed.

Where are the in-game lore books, where are the parties of enemies attacking different outposts with different strategies each time requiring player intervention, where are the secrets aside from something to summon another mount boss, where is the new mounted/aerial/naval combat based on skill and not memorized rotations, where are the Wintergrasp style PVP world zones with different tactics to breach your enemies' keeps, like tunneling, ladders and flying machines?

It's been 12 years of the same, same grind, to the point I see people actually cheering for fucking REP GRINDS, like you didn't get enough of it during BC, and daily quests. Why are these grinds so LOVINGLY referred to by people as content?

11 years, still not 12 yet, but minor detail... you may continue now.

[micwini]

After 12 years, why have you still not figured out what an MMO is?

[Granyala]

Not even a month in and I already feel the strain.

Esp the whole "Addicted Elf" rep is absurd.
75 rep per W-quest and the need to get to exalted in order to get Loremaster?

FUCK OFF MY LAWN.

[Xires]

Mats farming
Rep farming
Artifact farming
Level farming
Gold farming
Gear grinding
Achievement farming (the pointless shit, i.e. anything almost everything not PVP)
Daily farming
etc

Any action which consists of repetitive actions which require no real personal skill (aside from knowing your class combos and not to stand in fire) nor offer any challenge, which simply required time wasted to be completed.

Where are the in-game lore books, where are the parties of enemies attacking different outposts with different strategies each time requiring player intervention, where are the secrets aside from something to summon another mount boss, where is the new mounted/aerial/naval combat based on skill and not memorized rotations, where are the Wintergrasp style PVP world zones with different tactics to breach your enemies' keeps, like tunneling, ladders and flying machines?

It's been 12 years of the same, same grind, to the point I see people actually cheering for fucking REP GRINDS, like you didn't get enough of it during BC, and daily quests. Why are these grinds so LOVINGLY referred to by people as content?

Oh no's!!!!! I have to actually go out and do things to progress my character in an MMO!!!! Bring back Garrisons!!!!!!! /end sarcasm

- - - Updated - - -

Not even a month in and I already feel the strain.

Esp the whole "Addicted Elf" rep is absurd.
75 rep per W-quest and the need to get to exalted in order to get Loremaster?

FUCK OFF MY LAWN.

So you want it all now now now, huh? You wanna finish everything the first month with nothing to do for the other 2 years, huh? Fuck of MY lawn...

[Jewsco]

Not even a month in and I already feel the strain.

Esp the whole "Addicted Elf" rep is absurd.
75 rep per W-quest and the need to get to exalted in order to get Loremaster?

FUCK OFF MY LAWN.

Realize it is setup that way intentionally right? We are not suppose to be done with everything in less than a month. You do know we have at least 2 more years of this?

[unfilteredJW]

I don't spit the word grind out with contempt like most do. I like stuff like this in my RPGs, and lack of said grind is a negative in my eyes.

Long term progression goals are fucking awesome, and have been missing for too long due to arcadification (totally made up word, and if there's a better one tell me please) of WoW.

[lightofdawn]

Feel free to disagree with me, but please refrain from namecalling.

I'm perfectly aware that what people find fun is purely subjective. But we're talking about game design and what is acceptable in terms of the core gameplay loop compared to other games in the genre. Some repetition of types of gameplay is acceptable, but using grind as blatant filler in the manner that Blizzard, and other MMOs do, just plain isn't good, especially when it's placed as a requirement which locks other gameplay.

It's one thing to set it in front of a reward. But it's another thing entirely when it actually locks content, such as Blizzard has done with the Arcway and Spellhold. There was a very good reason why long attunement chains with heavy grind components were removed back in WotLK and TBC. Because it was junk design, and while a certain amount of players are going to claim to enjoy it no matter what, overall it's not a good design technique.

And it's not even that great when grind is used to lock out rewards, especially when the reward is made powerful enough that the community begins to expect players to have it, such as with the legendary cloak or ring. In those cases the problem is compounded by multiplying the grind required with hard time-locks on how much progress you can achieve.

You can like whatever you want. But don't try to tell me that mindless repetition is good for the game when it's clearly being used as nothing but straight up filler to artificially extend the lifespan of otherwise weak content(or lack of content) with the sole purpose of making more subscription profits.

a reward IS content. and i didnt call you names, i called your argument stupid

[SirCowdog]

a reward IS content. and i didnt call you names, i called your argument stupid

Uninteresting, uninspired, repetitive, boring, "content" with poor writing that in most cases has NOTHING to do with the narrative of the story? The world of Azeroth is under the threat of being glassed by hellfire, but oh, my bad, here....go collect some freaking BEAR SKINS every day until I trust you enough to give you a T-shirt.

I'm sorry, calling that bad content is NOT a stupid argument.

[Traxwow]

That is content. It's an MMO?

[Beefkow]

If you hate grinding, then don't play an MMORPG.

Go play another video game that is either FPS, mario style, racing, etc.

[lightofdawn]

Uninteresting, uninspired, repetitive, boring, "content" with poor writing that in most cases has NOTHING to do with the narrative of the story? The world of Azeroth is under the threat of being glassed by hellfire, but oh, my bad, here....go collect some freaking BEAR SKINS every day until I trust you enough to give you a T-shirt.

I'm sorry, calling that bad content is NOT a stupid argument.

i didnt say it was amazing content, but you called it not content at all, which is simply false.

[Darkeon]

Grinding type of content is good to artificially extend the products' lifetime, while keeping the players engaged and with some sense of progression on-going that gets them to login in order to do these chores.
It's still being used in this time and age because it works.

If you do know of a better method, that of course doesn't involve actually churning out content at incredible and, honestly, unrealistic speed, feel free to share with us.

[SirCowdog]

i didnt say it was amazing content, but you called it not content at all, which is simply false.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I never said it wasn't content at all. I said it was BAD content. And it sounds like you agree with me. Don't confuse me with the OP.

[Deleted]

This "mmorpgs are all about grind duh " argument is the reason the mmo genre is long dead, its a dead genre which only took steps backwards ever since everquest and the everquest fanboys which made world of warcraft decided what mmos should be about with their thick skullls

Guess this design was absolute shit and why MMos have stopped evolving and preferred to remain in the mediocre confort zone

[Granyala]

Realize it is setup that way intentionally right? We are not suppose to be done with everything in less than a month.

Yes, and that's precisely why it annoys me. I am intelligent enough to see that the design is set up that way in order to artificially slow us down and keep us subscribed. NOT a good feeling any game should evoke.

I don't consider rep farming (outside of dungeon running) fun.

Never really liked questing past max level at all, because I prefer to heal.

[Zelorra]

All those listed by the OP are repetitive CONTENT. Which is a normal thing in a MMORPG.

/thread