Rets, please - stop buff kings and wisdom in dungeons.

[Alindra]

The issue is it's 100% irrelevant, it is not utility, because we are losing 10% damage to give out 10% damage... It's a zero sum, the raid gains nothing from it, therefore it is pointless and should not exist...

Please stop saying that, Blizzard is on record as saying this is not the case:

Retribution Paladins will be balanced with the expectation that they’re using 3 total Greater Blessings (not necessarily just Might).

Source

Yes, Greater Blessings suck. Yes, Might x3 is the optimal way to use them. Yes, we're partly damaged around Might, but we're not balanced around 3.


[edit: Ah, I see you're not the same person I corrected on the previous page. Apologies. Point still stands, though.]

[Schattenlied]

Please stop saying that, Blizzard is on record as saying this is not the case:

Retribution Paladins will be balanced with the expectation that they’re using 3 total Greater Blessings (not necessarily just Might).

Source

Yes, Greater Blessings suck. Yes, Might x3 is the optimal way to use them. Yes, we're partly damaged around Might, but we're not balanced around 3.


[edit: Ah, I see you're not the same person I corrected on the previous page. Apologies. Point still stands, though.]

What they say and what they do are rarely the same thing, they also told us the stuff would be in place to properly have addons attribute BoM's damage to us, 8 months later that shit still doesn't work properly.

We are barely middle of the pack (which normaslly wouldn't be an issue, but the gap between middle and top is fucking enormous) WITH 3 BoM, if we are tuned around having ONE out then we need to be buffed even more.

[Alindra]

What they say and what they do are rarely the same thing, they also told us the stuff would be in place to properly have addons attribute BoM's damage to us, 8 months later that shit still doesn't work properly.

We are barely middle of the pack WITH 3 BoM, if we are tuned around having ONE out then we REALLY need to be buffed.

True, they failed on delivering that functionality and addon developers had to pick up the slack. Thing is, that is something we can objectively test. We cannot test design intent. Could they have failed on their design? Yes. Could they have changed their mind? Yes. Last we were told, we are not designed around 3 Mights. Until we are told otherwise, anyone claiming otherwise is just speculating.

edit: To be clear, I'm not saying we're in a good position, either. I'm just debating their stated design intent. Nothing more.

[Schattenlied]

True, they failed on delivering that functionality and addon developers had to pick up the slack. Thing is, that is something we can objectively test. We cannot test design intent. Could they have failed on their design? Yes. Could they have changed their mind? Yes. Last we were told, we are not designed around 3 Mights. Until we are told otherwise, anyone claiming otherwise is just speculating.

edit: To be clear, I'm not saying we're in a good position, either. I'm just debating their stated design intent. Nothing more.

I speculate based on what I see, and based on us being in a terrible place, and doing utterly non competitive DPS without 3 might out, I will assume we are balanced around 3 until I see a recent post telling me otherwise, not one from just short of 5 months ago.

Also they said we are balanced around having 3 greater blessings, that may very well mean they simply believe that Kings and Wisdom are both worth the paladin doing 3-4% less DPS than their "balanced" potential per buff to offset that "utility".

[Triceratrozer]

I don't get this thread at all.

[Lucetia]

Well, the thing is - as long as there's a dps that can be buffed with your Might, it is always going to be better than Kings on a tank or Wisdom on a healer. And because of that, if you have 2 Retribution paladins for example in a 5-man group (Normal or Mythic+15, it doesn't matter), those 3 DpS should have 2x Might each (thus '6x' Might). Reason? Both Mights can proc on your attack. And as CptKnusper said:

Not saying either are wrong, but do you have a link with some solid numbers showing it? I know during the beta it wasn't giving extra proc chances (basically ignoring any might buff past 1). It's possible they changed it and I haven't been in a group with more than one ret so I can't test it.

That aside I do use might x3 just because it makes the run go slightly faster in the end.

[micwini]

You're limited to placing 3 buffs. Not 3 buffs per player, but 3 buffs in your entire group.

That means you can go with the correct allocation of 1 Might per DPS
or the subpar allocation of Might to yourself, kings to tank, wisdom to healer
or completely backwards allocation of Might+Kings+Wisdom on yourself.

So you can have 3 mights in your group? I thought you could only have one of each in your group.
If that's the case, people probably do that because they don't know they can. I thought you could have 3 buffs in your group, but only one of each.

[Schattenlied]

Yes and no.

Hybrid Tax is a PR-thing.
It's like a politician telling his ideas and then never getting to it.
It makes pures feel less bad because they can't heal or tank.
Hybrid Tax is about class vs class balance.

The reason we're this low is because Blizzard hasn't balanced properly and has nothing to do with the tax.

Yes, I'm aware and thats the point I was making... The person I replied to seemed to think that our doing lower DPS was intended because we are not a "pure", I said hybrid tax isn't a thing anymore because it isn't, meaning precisely that poor balance is the reason we do poorly, not because we should as a hybrid.


Spec vs spec is all that should matter, they can't respec to tank or heal, we can't respec to get a different DPS kit... The role the other specs in a class fill is irrelevant, I am brought to raids to be a DPS, not so I can switch specs to Holy or Prot... I play Ret to be Ret, I want to DPS as a Paladin because I don't enjoy tanking or healing, lore, and because Paladins are like 90% of the reason I play any fantasy RPG... not because I want to also be able to heal or tank.


How a Paladin who only wants to be Ret feels when Ret under performs is exactly how, for example, a Sub Rogue who doesn't enjoy Outlaw or Assassination at all feels when Sub underperforms... We can both switch specs to a completely different playstyle that neither of us like, sure, but neither of us want to, and the Paladin can't just switch into stealing a heal or tank spot that is already filled... I would know how that Sub Rogue feels, because I am also that Sub Rogue.

[Deleted]

How a Paladin who only wants to be Ret feels when Ret under performs is exactly how, for example, a Sub Rogue who doesn't enjoy Outlaw or Assassination at all feels when Sub underperforms... We can both switch specs to a completely different playstyle that neither of us like, sure, but neither of us want to, and the Paladin can't just switch into stealing a heal or tank spot that is already filled... I would know how that Sub Rogue feels, because I am also that Sub Rogue.

with the difference that they will bring sub rogues in line with other dps by buffing them. For ret this adjustment will most likely be to buff the correct classes with might...

[Sigxy]

Not saying either are wrong, but do you have a link with some solid numbers showing it? I know during the beta it wasn't giving extra proc chances (basically ignoring any might buff past 1). It's possible they changed it and I haven't been in a group with more than one ret so I can't test it.

That aside I do use might x3 just because it makes the run go slightly faster in the end.

I'll admit, when it gets to the "Might 1 proccing on Might 2" I've not had a chance to try it personally, but I trust in what CptKnusper said some posts ago about it.

Overall though, with only mounted movement speed being an exception (There could be something else)... if you have more than 1 buff on you doing the same thing, it's safe to say that it's going to stack, because otherwise Blizzard wouldn't let both the buffs be on you (Usually it's the best buff replacing the worse buff)

[Romeothecat]

And yet, I was almost kicked from a group the other day for "being selfish and not buffing the tank with kings". When I did, ofc one of the dps lost their BoM so then they started complaining. I think a lot of ppl have no clue what greater blessings do or how they work. ><

Yeah I think this is a big problem too. Often on the wow sub reddit I see people vastly overestimate greater blessings. I've even seen some say that mythic guilds will reserve 1 or 2 spots for rets solely for wisdom. Meanwhile I have people replying to me in that same thread surprised to find out that you can use 3 of any one of the buffs at once.

[Jester Joe]

Today I did a Mythic Arcway and the retribution paladin buffed me with Wisdom.
I asked him if he could please buff the three DPS and he did that.

It's not that hard people!

I did a raid. Got told that we don't need 3 mights out, and putting kings on a tank would be nice.

I tried explaining why its wrong. I got the passive aggressive "It would be nice to have Wisdom" after a wipe.

[Morally Grey Storm]

I did a raid. Got told that we don't need 3 mights out, and putting kings on a tank would be nice.

I tried explaining why its wrong. I got the passive aggressive "It would be nice to have Wisdom" after a wipe.

why would you care for clueless agressive?

[Jester Joe]

why would you care for clueless agressive?

You could almost hear the exact moment my blood vessels popped.

I didn't bother responding to that because we ended up stopping though.

[Schattenlied]

I did a raid. Got told that we don't need 3 mights out, and putting kings on a tank would be nice.

I tried explaining why its wrong. I got the passive aggressive "It would be nice to have Wisdom" after a wipe.

This kind of crap is just yet another one of the many reasons why Greater Blessings need to be removed from the game.

[Deleted]

And when a healer asks for wisdom on themselves, even though I explain to them that 1% mana every 15 secs is basically nothing?

[Morally Grey Storm]

And when a healer asks for wisdom on themselves, even though I explain to them that 1% mana every 15 secs is basically nothing?

you shall sternly tell hom to feth off.

[Schattenlied]

you shall sternly tell hom to feth off.

You'd get more traction telling them to fuck off, as most people don't have the slightest clue what feth means.

[Deleted]

I tend to just put might on the 3 top DPS. Kings and Wisdom feel underwhelming compared to Might anyway imo

[Morally Grey Storm]

You'd get more traction telling them to fuck off, as most people don't have the slightest clue what feth means.

Most people don't have the slightest clue indeed.