Ret: Haste is a lie?

[Consiliem]

There isn't all that much interaction between our stats, though. There is between mastery and haste, no doubt, but with mastery consistently being poor I don't care. Getting more crit, haste or versatility doesn't really affect the value of the other two.

There doesn't have to be a direct ability interaction or other synergy between stats for their values to change.
Stats change their own value based on the amount of that same stat you have. For example, if you have 1% crit chance, getting another 1% crit is much more valuable than getting 1% crit when you already have 99%.

Some stats, like versatility, have a very smooth value because they do a direct % of your damage, but as you do more damage, each point of versatility amounts to more damage, and.thus becomes more powerful.

Haste tends to be the odd man out because there are certain breakpoints you can hit where suddenly you're getting an extra TV inside every judgment window, and until you get enough haste for another TV in a judgment window (as an example), haste's value seems diminished because the situation is not correct for haste to be very powerful with your current stats.

Basically, haste up to 30% smooths out issues in our rotation, and is very valuable despite the fact that at some points it may be weaker than other stats due to breakpoints, current stat allocation, or talent choices. When comparing new gear, this has to be kept in mind, but if you're only comparing a single piece that doesn't have enough haste to reach the next breakpoint, it won't look as valuable for that ONE piece, which is completely normal. But getting your haste up at the end of the day will eventually provide more dps and a smoother rotation. Even if you have to slog through a less-than-ideal gear choice.

The way I'm doing it is to constantly sim with every upgrade, provide the new stat weights into AMR/Pawn, and evaluate every upgrade individually, with a mind to keep my haste at 25-30% whenever feasible.

[Jester Joe]

It's funny, I simmed myself last night and thought I did something wrong because it came up with vers being by far the highest stat, and then it was crit>haste>mastery I believe.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...sterjoe/simple

If anyone's curious about gear/talent choices. I stuck haste on stuff because that's what I thought was best, but now I'm thinking I should redo that.
Also pls don't hate me for my ring

[ThePants999]

There doesn't have to be a direct ability interaction or other synergy between stats for their values to change.
Stats change their own value based on the amount of that same stat you have. For example, if you have 1% crit chance, getting another 1% crit is much more valuable than getting 1% crit when you already have 99%.

Some stats, like versatility, have a very smooth value because they do a direct % of your damage, but as you do more damage, each point of versatility amounts to more damage, and.thus becomes more powerful.

Haste tends to be the odd man out because there are certain breakpoints you can hit where suddenly you're getting an extra TV inside every judgment window, and until you get enough haste for another TV in a judgment window (as an example), haste's value seems diminished because the situation is not correct for haste to be very powerful with your current stats.

Basically, haste up to 30% smooths out issues in our rotation, and is very valuable despite the fact that at some points it may be weaker than other stats due to breakpoints, current stat allocation, or talent choices. When comparing new gear, this has to be kept in mind, but if you're only comparing a single piece that doesn't have enough haste to reach the next breakpoint, it won't look as valuable for that ONE piece, which is completely normal. But getting your haste up at the end of the day will eventually provide more dps and a smoother rotation. Even if you have to slog through a less-than-ideal gear choice.

Yes, I don't disagree with any of this (almost - your crit example is not necessarily true), but nor do I see its relevance.

It's absolutely true that when you change a stat, its value changes. That's what the plots achieve, they show you that - the value is the gradient of the plot, and the fact that it's not a straight line reflects what you describe. So you'll see haste spike at a breakpoint. Plots save you the need to constantly re-sim by answering the question "if I got X more of stat Y, how valuable would it be then?"

However, what you said in your previous post is that the value of a stat changes when you change OTHER stats. That, if true, is a big problem for plots - and for a lot of specs, it is very true. For example, old Disc having major interactions between crit+mastery such that getting more of one significantly increased the value of the other. What I was trying to say is that I don't think that's very true for us.
- Changing how much crit you have changes how valuable crit is, but doesn't change the relative value of haste/vers/mastery because there's no interaction between them.
- Changing how much vers you have changes how valuable vers is (a tiny bit), but doesn't change the relative value of haste/crit/mastery because there's no interaction between them.
- Changing how much mastery you have changes how valuable mastery is, but doesn't change the relative value of vers/crit because there's no interaction between them. (Exception to these things: if you have Greater Judgment, there's a crit/mastery interaction that you need to keep an eye on.)
The one thing missing from that list is haste/mastery, because they DO interact via the Judgment window, so changing how much haste you have will affect the value of mastery, and vice versa.

[Consiliem]

snip

Oh oh oh, yes, sorry, completely misunderstood.

I see what you're saying now, but there are interactions with other stats outside of abilities/passives themselves.

Haste and crit interact because higher haste creates more attacks, which means more rolls to crit for more damage at best, and to smooth out rng at worst.

Versatility interacts with crit and mastery because the increases to damage stack together; a bigger hit from vers crits for more, same with mastery buff during the judgment window (or with judgment itself)

These are the kinds of examples I was referring to. They aren't always a large interaction, but changing any stat affects every ability in some way, which changes how effective all stats are to those abilities. Just not always by a large amount like the haste/crit example you mentioned.

- - - Updated - - -

It's funny, I simmed myself last night and thought I did something wrong because it came up with vers being by far the highest stat, and then it was crit>haste>mastery I believe.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...sterjoe/simple

If anyone's curious about gear/talent choices. I stuck haste on stuff because that's what I thought was best, but now I'm thinking I should redo that.
Also pls don't hate me for my ring

I hate you for your ring.

Also, I've noticed that at lower levels of haste (<20%) that vers sims very high as well. I got around it by simming different combinations of the gear that dropped for me, changing things around for the highest dps at the time regardless of haste, and eventually it led me into haste stacking to where I am now, around 25-27%.

[mordrac]

Oh oh oh, yes, sorry, completely misunderstood.

I see what you're saying now, but there are interactions with other stats outside of abilities/passives themselves.

Haste and crit interact because higher haste creates more attacks, which means more rolls to crit for more damage at best, and to smooth out rng at worst.

Versatility interacts with crit and mastery because the increases to damage stack together; a bigger hit from vers crits for more, same with mastery buff during the judgment window (or with judgment itself)

These are the kinds of examples I was referring to. They aren't always a large interaction, but changing any stat affects every ability in some way, which changes how effective all stats are to those abilities. Just not always by a large amount like the haste/crit example you mentioned.

- - - Updated - - -



I hate you for your ring.

Also, I've noticed that at lower levels of haste (<20%) that vers sims very high as well. I got around it by simming different combinations of the gear that dropped for me, changing things around for the highest dps at the time regardless of haste, and eventually it led me into haste stacking to where I am now, around 25-27%.

that might be why haste + blade of wrath creates fast holy power. think thats why haste is best with this build. but with the coming changes it will shift back to crit/mastery.