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  1. #161
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    The fact that this is far from the last tuning pass is a given. Over the course of EN there will be plenty of changes here and there for many classes.

  2. #162
    Well we hope Gaidax. It does bode well.

    And Ji-Tae mad respect. You did as you said and apologized to Gaidax. I am very impressed.

    I would like QoL changes for Demo because it is very turrety but this is certainly a step in the right direction and more than I expected at this point.

  3. #163
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    The buffs are nice, but they need to revisit shard generation and cost. I've gone the better part of a minute with no shards proccing and my only way to get more being Conflag. So, yay CB does more damage, but I can't cast it because it's 2 shards and my generation is low. Yay, RoF is instant.... but costs 3 shards and... see above.

    Yes, this is partly stats... but if they're going to make me value haste and crit, quit making all the gear have vers and mastery... :/

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwill View Post
    If you're being declined for that low of a level for Mythic +, the class is not the issue.
    Actually, it is. Because they delayed fixing locks when it was obvious we were underpowered, a good number of people have gotten into their heads that locks are shit. Even if we end up being perfectly competitive in a month, you know people. They heard locks are shit, don't keep up with all of the changes and so in their minds locks are shit.

    I really do wonder why they can't sim this internally and get closer in beta. Seeing 30% spreads from top to bottom just reeks of inaccurate tuning.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    The buffs are nice, but they need to revisit shard generation and cost. I've gone the better part of a minute with no shards proccing and my only way to get more being Conflag. So, yay CB does more damage, but I can't cast it because it's 2 shards and my generation is low. Yay, RoF is instant.... but costs 3 shards and... see above.

    Yes, this is partly stats... but if they're going to make me value haste and crit, quit making all the gear have vers and mastery... :/

    - - - Updated - - -



    Actually, it is. Because they delayed fixing locks when it was obvious we were underpowered, a good number of people have gotten into their heads that locks are shit. Even if we end up being perfectly competitive in a month, you know people. They heard locks are shit, don't keep up with all of the changes and so in their minds locks are shit.

    I really do wonder why they can't sim this internally and get closer in beta. Seeing 30% spreads from top to bottom just reeks of inaccurate tuning.
    And how did they hear that locks are shit? Could it be that the constant shit posting about getting denied causes people to get denied due to all the shit posting? Did most of the shit posters know that elemental shaman was doing worse than warlocks or even why? of course not, but if people shit post constantly and go around screaming the sky is falling other people pick up on that.

    We are quite capable of contributing to an easy win in mythic + but people are shitty and want too chart classes even if they don't know if that player is any good at that class.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Actually, it is. Because they delayed fixing locks when it was obvious we were underpowered, a good number of people have gotten into their heads that locks are shit. Even if we end up being perfectly competitive in a month, you know people. They heard locks are shit, don't keep up with all of the changes and so in their minds locks are shit.

    I really do wonder why they can't sim this internally and get closer in beta. Seeing 30% spreads from top to bottom just reeks of inaccurate tuning.
    A lot of people take being rejected from a group as a personal insult but the truth is that a lot of DPS will get declined, whether it's a Fire Mage or an Affliction Lock. I'm not saying that there isn't some people denying Warlocks some spot but claiming they are the majority is not true whatsoever and if you keep on being declined, maybe the problem isn't with the class.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    No, people are crying murder and post absolute shitfest crap and consider that "feedback". You have people claiming something along the line of warlocks being 30% or even more behind the mainstream DPS or that it is impossible to do well in raids or that Blizzard is out to get them or that anyone who disagrees about the magintude of the issue is a paid Blizzard shill or has shit teammates.

    Nobody including me contested that Warlocks needed buffs, but some people are completely out of touch with reality and any their recommendations are so outlandish and exaggerated that it makes me and quite a few others ponder whether in their case it is indeed a class issue.

    I mean look in this thread, even after these buffs people still somehow question that at least some specs of Warlocks will be fine. You have posters who claim Blizzard needs to give double the buff it gave and that we will still be trash tier and declined for M+.

    Fuck, I am literally getting crucified here for claiming that with these buffs spec like Destruction will do good and most likely Demo as well. Really, is that such an insane thing to say?

    This is simply not serious.
    This tuning pass gets the numbers near where they should be (I fully expect some will be readjusted down in further tuning passes) and is a great start, there are mechanics\talents\artifact traits which are still fucked decreasing the enjoyment of playing the specs or arbitrarily increasing the punishing nature of various encounter mechanics for that spec ONLY for no damn good reason but this is a great start.
    Last edited by FertsBlert; 2016-09-25 at 12:16 AM.
    When I was younger I used to hope bad things wouldn't happen.
    Now I just hope they're at least funny when they do.

  7. #167
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jondar View Post
    No it doesn't and no they aren't. Stop saying this garbage.

    If you're doing 75% less than the Warlocks you're telling that their group sucks, a 25-30% buff won't help you either. And that's the case ITT. The Warlocks clamoring for much more buffs, saying we're ruined as a class and cannot possibly be competitive, are not the Warlocks that will be doing well in almost any group no matter what buffs we receive. If you look at Warcraft logs, look at the top parses, don't see enough Warlocks and think that that is proof that Warlocks are not good.. then you have no clue what you're looking at or talking about. And it's ridiculous how many times that has been used as "proof" of the Warlock demise.

    This is like the fucking General Discussion, holy shit. I came here to get away from that place.. but I think I'd rather rub my nuts against tree bark than continue to read this nonsense. The majority of the people complaining should be spending their time in THIS thread,

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...EAD-FIRST-POST

    not these ones.
    you're free to believe whatever you want, but there is a HUGE difference between being fine and being good and no offense but im inclined to believe the ppl from the top 10 guilds over both you and gaidax as they know more and are more skilled than the both of you, and i hate to burst your buble but if you, as a lock, do more dmg than classes like hunters, mages, rogues etc. then that doesnt make you a good player, it just makes the other players fantastically poor players, with equal skill those classes blow locks out of the water.

  8. #168
    Gaidax is simply dead wrong regardless whether he is correct on that we would be competitive with destro in M+ and raids.

    First of all, although I'd withhold my judgment until the tuning is tested next week and we have more data, the magnitude and extent of our underwhelming performance warrants an equal sized buff. To me, I highly doubt these buffs are sufficient. But for argument sake let's say that I am completely incorrect and Gaidax is completely correct on this point.

    Second, even if we turned out to be good and competitive, it is still correct and in the interest of our class and community, to gain more buffs. One simply does not stop fighting for our interest just because we are "back-compensated" even if that compensation is adequate for the present time because these buffs did not account for our suffering and actual damages caused prior to the patch. What Gaidax is saying is essentially that if a car injures you and the driver is at full fault, promising that he would never do that again and medical bills would be enough. It is plainly outrageous and chills the warlock community, what about pain and suffering (declines, raid benches and emotional distress), lost wages (lost opportunities to get gear, rerolling and as a result lost ap), and future damages (lost reputation and opportunities). We must be overbuffed (over the current deficiencies) to compensate for that, to make the average lock perform better than average and gain back trust to be invited into groups and raids.

    Moreover, even if we back off one more time and assumes the buffs here are so significant that it compensates for the present, future and past, Gaidax is still dead wrong to think that we should be content with being somewhere near the top or competitive. There is nothing wrong to always demand more for your people. It is simply a breach of loyalty that the fact Gaidax is speaking on behalf of the developers and act in their interest not ours. It is important to see that there is a conflict of interest, our interest does not perfectly align with theirs. It is in our interest, rightfully or not (although it is in my humble opinion that we rightfully so in this case), to gain every advantage we can as a class, and more buffs are in line with our interest. Not only that there is nothing wrong with that, just like one seeks to push their dps to be the best and never be content with just good dps, we, as a community, should and seeks to push our class advantage as far as we can, this is simply the right thing to do.
    Last edited by pigorhen; 2016-09-25 at 01:02 AM.

  9. #169
    So what do you think will change about reverse entropy now that RoF no longer has a cast time? Make it's damage tick faster or more for a shorter period of time?

  10. #170
    Rerolled warlock at start of this expansion for the guild, one of my biggest regrets as our cds feel so weak compared to most other classes. (Not just talking about the raid now, but especially m+) Only two bosses i see us not holding back the grp during mythic might be ursoc(dno how much cleave is needed) Dragons for obvious reasons and the heart of corruption assuming the outside phases will be hard during mythic and the fight will be about not getting overrun in the 2/3 dps phases it will require.

    warcraftlogs.com/reports/tc7fKNGqanXTvb13 (evilgurl) some notes, cant really compete vs classes in the burst aoe so i just stuck to trying to dps priority targets, during normal it was just a clownfest and we went full retard. Was testing destro vs other lock who played demo on first boss, but none of us had done much preperation so we couldnt plan our movement very well.

    For heroic dragons I managed to get slept during a swap as i didnt pay too much attention but it's defo a boss we shine on and can push 400+k dps

    Overall tho the gameplay doesnt feel rewarding aswell and hoping there will be a major overhaul of the class, atleast this playstyle doesnt fit me as I much prefer being less "tanky" and more mobile.

    The upcoming buffs wont do much I feel, as most classes around us was buffed as much if not more and the classes that are above us didnt get nerfed and we wont catch up. PS lol at gaidax

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by almara2512 View Post
    you're free to believe whatever you want, but there is a HUGE difference between being fine and being good and no offense but im inclined to believe the ppl from the top 10 guilds over both you and gaidax as they know more and are more skilled than the both of you, and i hate to burst your buble but if you, as a lock, do more dmg than classes like hunters, mages, rogues etc. then that doesnt make you a good player, it just makes the other players fantastically poor players, with equal skill those classes blow locks out of the water.
    The people in the top 10 guilds actually have an incentive to play the best possible classes - THEY'RE IN TOP 10 GUILDS. Why does any of that concern you? Stop acting like what the 99th percentile does has any effect on your performance and stop looking to WCL rankings for excuses. I swear, when you guys are posting it's like you actually think you're playing the class as best as it can be played and there's nothing you can do about other players beating you. Then again, I need to remember that the majority of the people crying ITT aren't even raiding yet they're misusing raid statistics to suit their position.

    The people in the top 10 guilds do not share your argument. They are not on MMO-Champion posting all this nonsense. They aren't saying "IF YOU DO GOOD YOUR GROUP IS SHIT TRLOLOL" Don't try and relate your opinions to theirs, because they are not one in the same. For the millionth time, yes. Warlocks need work. But to act like they aren't playable or that they can't be competitive is 100%, undeniably, and no questions asked a L2P issue, and no amount of buffs will teach people how to play properly.
    Last edited by Jondar; 2016-09-25 at 01:28 AM.

  12. #172
    I still don't feel like these buffs will change much. The design and mechanics behind each spec especially demo is flatout ridiculous. Takes so much time to get the ball the rollling and when we finally get there, the reward isn't there. I don't know. I'm not holding my breath that these changes will change it class all that much.

    On top of this, we lack the cool down abilities a lot of other classes posses. We need some CD abilities.

  13. #173
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jondar View Post
    The people in the top 10 guilds actually have an incentive to play the best possible classes - THEY'RE IN TOP 10 GUILDS. Why does any of that concern you?
    That isn't an argument against warlocks being objectively worse than most other classes, it's proof if anything.

    Do people need to be playing the best class to get through any content? No, nor do you need good gear for most of it, it doesn't change the fact that people tend to enjoy things a lot less if they're wearing crappy gear and clamor for better.
    Will people be performing poorly because of their own play rather than class limitations? Probably, but telling people they should play at a notably higher level to be on the same level as their guildmates seems like a poor argument.

    I don't really mind where we are numerically, it's a much lesser gripe than where we are mechanically - I think we've hit a point where every spec is in a worse iteration than previous ones, but pretending warlocks are fine seems ludicrous in the face of the information on display - anecdotal information from outplaying guildmates isn't a very compelling argument.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Grabacr View Post
    Not at all if you're also asking for an immediate nerf.
    What is there left to nerf about Chaos Bolt? At this rat, it only needs to go UP. It is truly pathetic, it has to be a masterpiece how they managed to fuck this spell and spec up. That's what you get when you have devs that don't play warlocks. They just move things around and thinking they are done for the day.

  15. #175

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    I was playing Destro exclusively so instant RoF and 11% buffs across the board is perfect news to me. I'll happily continue to melt faces.
    I'm with you there... melting faces with my feretory strapped round my waist... absolutely. I love Destro

  16. #176
    Stood in the Fire Lisa Frank Succubus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jondar View Post
    The people in the top 10 guilds actually have an incentive to play the best possible classes - THEY'RE IN TOP 10 GUILDS. Why does any of that concern you? Stop acting like what the 99th percentile does has any effect on your performance and stop looking to WCL rankings for excuses. I swear, when you guys are posting it's like you actually think you're playing the class as best as it can be played and there's nothing you can do about other players beating you. Then again, I need to remember that the majority of the people crying ITT aren't even raiding yet they're misusing raid statistics to suit their position.
    Unfortunately far too many people look at how the top 10 guilds and people in the 99th percentile perform and base a class' viability solely on this. They fail to understand that many times a class is rated highly due to meter padding/cheesing but I'm not trying to say fire mages or feral druids aren't good or that warlocks aren't having problems that need addressing. Different factors go into why classes are where they are, especially at top levels.

  17. #177
    The Unstoppable Force Gaidax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twilightcrescent View Post
    I'm with you there... melting faces with my feretory strapped round my waist... absolutely. I love Destro
    Aye, Feretory friends assemble!

    Our Chaos Bolts will blot out the sun!!

  18. #178
    Well, actually, in mythic+ high levels warlocks are pretty decent, because most of the time you are killing trash, which is usually 2-4 mobs, where wreak havoc gives you a shitton of dmg. We did a lvl 9 on time with a warlock and ele shaman ^^

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    That isn't an argument against warlocks being objectively worse than most other classes, it's proof if anything.
    No, it isn't.

    information on display -
    What information? One week of the least represented class' first time Heroic clearing? Going in with pre-raid gear?

    Probably, but telling people they should play at a notably higher level to be on the same level as their guildmates seems like a poor argument.
    Do you think encouraging a hub for pepple with practically 0 in-raid experience to post links to Warcraft Logs that mean absolutely nothing to them and they act like they're some sort of proof of something, even though they're being misread and used way out of context, is a good form of argument?

    Most people doing all this whining will not have to actually play at a notably higher level to keep up with their group. The problem is is that these people are comparing their group to top group's logs and pretending like THAT is what they have to keep up with.

    I'll stick with encouraging better play, because that way when the buffs do hit.. maybe they'll actually be better, rather than having spent all that time crying only to receive buffs then still suck

    anecdotal information from outplaying guildmates isn't a very compelling argument.
    That isn't and never has been an actual argument as to the state of Warlocks. What that is is a testament that Warlocks are playable. It doesn't mean they're better than the classes those players beat. It doesn't mean that Warlocks should be #1 because a Warlock was #1 in their group. It means worry about being good enough for your own group. That is all that matters when talking about a class being "playable."

    For the millionth time, yes. Warlocks need work. But to act like they aren't playable or that they can't be competitive is 100%, undeniably, and no questions asked a L2P issue, and no amount of buffs will teach people how to play properly.
    Last edited by Jondar; 2016-09-25 at 04:15 PM.

  20. #180
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Jondar View Post
    No, it isn't.



    What information? One week of the least represented class' first time Heroic clearing? Going in with pre-raid gear?



    Do you think encouraging a hub for pepple with practically 0 in-raid experience to post links to Warcraft Logs that mean absolutely nothing to them and they act like they're some sort of proof of something, even though they're being misread and used way out of context, is a good form of argument?

    Most people doing all this whining will not have to actually play at a notably higher level to keep up with their group. The problem is is that these people are comparing their group to top group's logs and pretending like THAT is what they have to keep up with.

    I'll stick with encouraging better play, because that way when the buffs do hit.. maybe they'll actually be better, rather than having spent all that time crying only to receive buffs then still suck



    That isn't and never has been an actual argument as to the state of Warlocks. What that is is a testament that Warlocks are playable. It doesn't mean they're better than the classes those players beat. It doesn't mean that Warlocks should be #1 because a Warlock was #1 in their group. It means worry about being good enough for your own group. That is all that matters when talking about a class being "playable."
    If the very very best your class / spec can perform is 70% of the very very best of another class / spec, then yes, you would have to play ALOT better than those specs to get equal numbers. I don't see how you can deny that.

    Edit: I mean, if the very best of one spec was 10% of another spec, would you still be saying the same thing? I doubt it, and then my question is, at which point can you ignore this fact? 95% would be fine by me, 90% is not good, but 70% is just plain unacceptable in my opinion.

    And no, logs can't tell us absolutely everything and show every single thing that is wrong, but they are still good indicators. And it is simply a fact from the current logs that all warlock specs are currently pretty far below some other specs.

    That is also why we got some substantial buffs across the board, so really, you denying this point is just... Odd. Will the buffs be enough? Maybe, but I won't complain about buffs even if they are not enough. Will they fix all the design issues with warlocks at the moment? Nope, but hopefully 7.1 will. When I say design issues, I'm talking about survivability outside aff (Drain Life is massive, but a DPS loss for demo and destro), often not having an interrupt available due to talent choices / DPS loss, Soul Harvest as a talent, Demonology requiring absurd amounts of haste and still being very punishing after that, Affliction artifact traits, and so on. The list of objectively sound warlock design issues is long.
    Last edited by mmoc738030ea5a; 2016-09-25 at 04:37 PM.

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