20% nerf to Barrage

[Deleted]

1: I can see you're not attempting to do math. Let me fucking help you when you can't do it on your own:

Over 1 minute:
AMOC: 1 Use, 30 focus cost, 1.5M damage.
Barrage: 3 Uses, 180 focus cost, 2.4M damage (after nerf).

Subtract 30 focus cost from the 180 for *3* uses of barrage over 1 minute. You're left with spending 150 extra focus every minute, picking barrage.

Likewise, time spent:
AMOC: 1 Global every minute.
Barrage: 7-9 seconds depending on haste / procs etc when you cast it on channels.

So, in summary:

Barrage gives 900K extra damage AT THE COST of 150 focus (3x aimed shots) and at least 7 seconds of time spent casting (also more than 3x aimed shots).
Concidering my average aimed shot in 850 gear hits for 350K (PLUS potential artifact procs if you're at your second golden), it means that AMOC is a net gain on EVERYTHING except mobility. DPS wise, it's the right choise for singletarget.

#math. Learn to use it.

2: What I'm saying is horseshit is your entire "you'd be moving anyway / 150 focus isn't a lot" claims.

You make it sound as if MM can even make use of all these globals when most people are playing with SW and have some downtime anyway.
The cast time of barrage is truely irrelevant most of the time, not because of movement though.
You aren't #mathing either, try using it correctly. How exactly will you fill the GCDs with AiS to gain the damage difference if you are freaking focus starved.'
You woudln't even theoretically have enough Vuln windows to fill these additional AiSs, because things just don't line up nicely with LnL proccs and Mark procs in real life.

[furfmonkey]

1: I can see you're not attempting to do math. Let me fucking help you when you can't do it on your own:

Over 1 minute:
AMOC: 1 Use, 30 focus cost, 1.5M damage.
Barrage: 3 Uses, 180 focus cost, 2.4M damage (after nerf).

Subtract 30 focus cost from the 180 for *3* uses of barrage over 1 minute. You're left with spending 150 extra focus every minute, picking barrage.

Likewise, time spent:
AMOC: 1 Global every minute.
Barrage: 7-9 seconds depending on haste / procs etc when you cast it on channels.

So, in summary:

Barrage gives 900K extra damage AT THE COST of 150 focus (3x aimed shots) and at least 7 seconds of time spent casting (also more than 3x aimed shots).
Concidering my average aimed shot in 850 gear hits for 350K (PLUS potential artifact procs if you're at your second golden), it means that AMOC is a net gain on EVERYTHING except mobility. DPS wise, it's the right choise for singletarget.

#math. Learn to use it.

2: What I'm saying is horseshit is your entire "you'd be moving anyway / 150 focus isn't a lot" claims.

yeah everything you just said is wrong.. all the top hunters and wowraids disprove this read this thread

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...9205765?page=1

logs from the first week disprove you right? Even on single target fights.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...c=Marksmanship

This is the top hunter that used crows for the fight:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=5

He ranked 63 with an item level of 852 for the fight.

He got in 4 crows, perfect amount, they did 6.93m

I scrolled DOWN, to find a guy that had the same trinkets as he did and an 851 item level.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=19

Ranked 134, barrage did 9.60m

lets look at the top dps hunters for ursoc before the top one that used crows. All of them used barrage. The damage that barrage did over crows doing for the top guy make up for the extra aimed shots and then some. It's the reason why barrage is used on single target fights. If the guy that used crows had used barrage, he would have ranked higher.

Hell, even Azorthian, one of the top hunters in the world, and the writer of the guide you probably got your talents and stat priority from didn't use crows

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ce=25&fight=11

oh and before you asked, he didn't use it for Nythendra either

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...rce=25&fight=2

you night wanna check your math or your sources....


http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...tharion/simple

[Azortharion]

Idk why my armory/logs are being linked by some idiots, pretty easy to just ask me.

I would've used Crows for Nythendra if Barrage's long cast time didn't boost it a bit by letting it be able to fill movement time that you would otherwise have spent waiting, forcing you to use Aimed Shots to stay off focus cap which is undesirable. If Nythendra was significantly less movement, I would've used Crows. In sims, before the nerf to Barrage, they were super close.

Most people just used Barrage because they were lazy. "Top" logs are a joke and have nothing to do with what the best talents are.

[eathdemon]

would you still stick with it after the nerf though, or is it worth changing to moc?

[Prokne]

"Damn, the heart attack inducing new animation didn't get them to stop using it, nerf bat it!"

Or you could learn to make competitive, fun talents. Naaaaaaah.

Barrage is one of our most fun abilities IMO. The first time I used it in MoP I was like "OMG that is amazing." So much better than Glaive Toss and Powershot (which you couldn't use in PvE anyway).

That was at least before they made it spray everywhere. It is not as good as it used to be.

[furfmonkey]

Idk why my armory/logs are being linked by some idiots, pretty easy to just ask me.

I would've used Crows for Nythendra if Barrage's long cast time didn't boost it a bit by letting it be able to fill movement time that you would otherwise have spent waiting, forcing you to use Aimed Shots to stay off focus cap which is undesirable. If Nythendra was significantly less movement, I would've used Crows. In sims, before the nerf to Barrage, they were super close.

Most people just used Barrage because they were lazy. "Top" logs are a joke and have nothing to do with what the best talents are.

dont shoot the messenger im merely sharing what i thought to be info pertinent to the discussion.. from wow forums .. i rarely post here and was simply looking for guidance


so today what would you use for MM and raiding crows? thanks in advance

[Slicer299]

Your math is so wrong.

You are forgetting focus costs and the fact that with amoc, you can use 2 aimed shots for free because of the extra focus and time you get by not channeling barrage for 2s.

My math is not wrong at all. If you are going to make a claim like that, back it up. Show me my math wrong. I won't hold my breath though, because it's not. And I did not forget to take either of those things into account. MoC costs 30 Focus per cast, 3 casts every 60 seconds = 90 Focus. Which is a full 50% more Focus spent every 60 seconds compared to the 60 Focus for Barrage. If you add in the 2 Aimed Shots per channel time of Barrage, you're adding another 100 Focus every 60 seconds.

Now, determining the exact x3 MoC + x2 Aimed at the total cost of 190 Focus vs x1 Barrage for 60 Focus will require Sims. But the base numbers of the spells should keep Barrage siming higher. Especially at higher gear levels since the damage of Barrage will keep scaling better with more Mastery and the channel time of Barrage will keep getting shorter with more Haste.

And all of that is based off your own claims, but the truth is you can't get two casts of Aimed Shot off over the duration of Barrage's channel time. At my current Haste levels, Barrage is a 2.7sec channel time, while Aimed Shot is a 1.8sec cast time. Even soft Haste capped to get Aimed Shot down to the 1.5s GCD, you still can't get 2 Aimed Shots in the same time as you would need to channel Barrage. Which goes a long way to destroying your damage claims.

[Turtel]

My math is not wrong at all. If you are going to make a claim like that, back it up. Show me my math wrong. I won't hold my breath though, because it's not. And I did not forget to take either of those things into account. MoC costs 30 Focus per cast, 3 casts every 60 seconds = 90 Focus. Which is a full 50% more Focus spent every 60 seconds compared to the 60 Focus for Barrage. If you add in the 2 Aimed Shots per channel time of Barrage, you're adding another 100 Focus every 60 seconds.

Now, determining the exact x3 MoC + x2 Aimed at the total cost of 190 Focus vs x1 Barrage for 60 Focus will require Sims. But the base numbers of the spells should keep Barrage siming higher. Especially at higher gear levels since the damage of Barrage will keep scaling better with more Mastery and the channel time of Barrage will keep getting shorter with more Haste.

And all of that is based off your own claims, but the truth is you can't get two casts of Aimed Shot off over the duration of Barrage's channel time. At my current Haste levels, Barrage is a 2.7sec channel time, while Aimed Shot is a 1.8sec cast time. Even soft Haste capped to get Aimed Shot down to the 1.5s GCD, you still can't get 2 Aimed Shots in the same time as you would need to channel Barrage. Which goes a long way to destroying your damage claims.

You made a huge error in your calculations. Barrage is the one that has to be casted 3 times per 60 seconds, not MoC. Barrage will cost 180 focus per minute, MoC will cost 30 focus per minute.

Murder of Crows also scales with MM mastery.

All that extra focus does not need to be used immediately. If the hunter doesn't focus cap, that 150 extra focus will be a guaranteed extra 3 Aimed Shot casts at some point in the fight. Of course, there are definitely points where MM hunters will focus cap (especially if there is movement and LnL procs), and this is what we need simulations for.

Another point to mention is that Barrage also completely messes up Windburst (since they both share a 20 second cooldown). If they both come off cooldown at the same time, using Barrage will delay your Windburst cooldown by 4.5 seconds (modified by haste).

[Azortharion]

Why would Barrage push back Windburst by 4.5 seconds? It's 3 seconds, less with Haste.

Anyway, pretty hilarious this dude thinking MoC is the 20-second cooldown ability.

- - - Updated - - -

dont shoot the messenger im merely sharing what i thought to be info pertinent to the discussion.. from wow forums .. i rarely post here and was simply looking for guidance


so today what would you use for MM and raiding crows? thanks in advance

If only I wrote a guide with my recommendation in detail..

[furfmonkey]

Why would Barrage push back Windburst by 4.5 seconds? It's 3 seconds, less with Haste.

Anyway, pretty hilarious this dude thinking MoC is the 20-second cooldown ability.

- - - Updated - - -



If only I wrote a guide with my recommendation in detail..

i think its great that you make guides etc but like i said before

i dont live on wow forums and have a family job etc and can't devote the time

no need to be snarky when i genuinely asked for help

[Azortharion]

Checking the guide doesn't seem like a monumental effort, family, job, or not, the link is in every single post I make in my signature.

[Knifttar]

i think its great that you make guides etc but like i said before

i dont live on wow forums and have a family job etc and can't devote the time

no need to be snarky when i genuinely asked for help

Well...Im not sure how you got to these forums, but just about every thread mentions "icy veins" guides...sooo...

[Turtel]

Why would Barrage push back Windburst by 4.5 seconds?

The cooldown doesn't start ticking for Windburst until you finish casting it (which allows you to cancel casting and not incur the cooldown) so the cooldown won't start ticking until 4.5 seconds after you start channeling Barrage. Of course, this 1.5 second delay happens regardless of if you use Barrage or not, so I guess it's not fair to fault Barrage for it. It does have an impact though, in the sense that the theoretical maximum times you can use Windburst in a 6 minute fight is 16 times, rather than 18.

[pkm]

i think its great that you make guides etc but like i said before

i dont live on wow forums and have a family job etc and can't devote the time

no need to be snarky when i genuinely asked for help

No, you can't make shitty excuses like that. We live in a day and age where the internet can be accessed anywhere, even at work. I'm sure you had free time to check but just didn't care and using the "I have a life" card on people.

[Katsuraxde]

Small question why isent volly used alot more? The way i see it based on Math you get free barrage damage Value after 12 hits of volly and it hits around 14 times or so for 20 sec which is barrage cd timer? Not to mention you dont get autos during barrage?

[Dracodraco]

yeah everything you just said is wrong.. all the top hunters and wowraids disprove this read this thread

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...9205765?page=1

How exactly does that disprove... ANYTHING? Just people bickering about how much damage stuff did and didn't do. You provide logs, so lets take a look:

logs from the first week disprove you right? Even on single target fights.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...c=Marksmanship

This is the top hunter that used crows for the fight:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...-done&source=5

He ranked 63 with an item level of 852 for the fight.

He got in 4 crows, perfect amount, they did 6.93m

I scrolled DOWN, to find a guy that had the same trinkets as he did and an 851 item level.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=19

Ranked 134, barrage did 9.60m

5 Crows, 7M damage done - 1.4M damage per application, which is fairly close to the 1.5M figure I threw around (dude might have less Mastery than I do on my own hunter and thus it'll be doing slightly less). If you look at the topic you linked, they're saying crows are only doing 1M per application as well. Already at this point we can see that the people you've decided to listen to can't even be bothered looking up numbers.


Then we get to the second log, and boy does it look fucking bleak for barrage doesn't it. Lets make it 11 hits of barrage over 4 minutes as the very last barrage clearly didn't go off well (only did 134K damage and boss died during it), just to make it a bit nicer - so 860K average damage per barrage, where I posted 1M. In reality, I guess we should expect 8-900K though.

In that case, the math becomes even worse for barrage singletarget:

Barrage: 2550K dmg over 1 minute, 180 focus cost, 7 seconds channel (along with 75K lost dmg from auto shots, by the way).
AMOC: 1400K dmg over 1 minute, 30 focus cost, 1 GBC application.
This is *before* the nerf, and as you can see (and as Azor kindly points out) - AMOC would have been better singletarget anyway even before the barrage nerf if you didn't absolutely need it for movement etc... After the nerf, you can lower those 2550K dmg to about 2M (due to the 75K lost by auto shot). You're now "wasting" 150 focus, 5-6 seconds channeling on an extra 600K damage. Two aimed shots make up for it. The third is pure fucking gain.


So yea, you might be right - my math was a bit off. I was actually favoring barrage too much; it's even weaker than anticipated. The only upsides to it is that it's useable during movement, and outside vulnerable.


As for basing anything off of heroic week #1 when everyone has different gear, are working out kinks in strategy and generally know jack shit about what's going on: Just fucking lol'd. Yea, clearly Barrage is the superior choise mate.

You make it sound as if MM can even make use of all these globals when most people are playing with SW and have some downtime anyway.
The cast time of barrage is truely irrelevant most of the time, not because of movement though.
You aren't #mathing either, try using it correctly. How exactly will you fill the GCDs with AiS to gain the damage difference if you are freaking focus starved.'
You woudln't even theoretically have enough Vuln windows to fill these additional AiSs, because things just don't line up nicely with LnL proccs and Mark procs in real life.

You make it sound as if MM can't. Barrage is easier to play with. If you're unable to fit more aimed shots into your vulner-timeframe, you can feel free to go for barrage, but those of us who *can* will do way more damage with AMOC.

As for the second line of your post - mind running that shit by me again? "How exactly will you fill the GCDs with AiS to gain the damage difference if you are freaking focus starved"? Uhm. MAYBE BY USING THE 150 FUCKING FOCUS I LITERALLY JUST EXPLAINED YOU'D GAIN BY NOT PRESSING BARRAGE. Durrh? Don't say I'm not #mathing when you can't even figure out where the extra focus is going to come from. Literally all of my wats.

As for not having enough vuln windows, I disagree. Plenty of windows available where nothing gets shot, you just have to start going for Sidewinder-Aimed-Aimed-Marked-Aimed-Aimed instead of Sidewinder-Aimed-Marked-Aimed-Aimed. We might see the rise of a small "haste plateu" in order to be able to squeeze two aimeds out after every vuln-application successfully, but that's... About it, really.

Small question why isent volly used alot more? The way i see it based on Math you get free barrage damage Value after 12 hits of volly and it hits around 14 times or so for 20 sec which is barrage cd timer? Not to mention you dont get autos during barrage?

Volley also destroys your focus pool everytime it hits. It's simply not worth using because it drains way more focus than anything else in order to reach the same damage. Likewise, as you can autoshot and trigger volley mid-aimed cast you could go sub-50 focus occasionally due to it and get interrupted due to sudden starvation. Not good for DPS. BM doesn't have the same issue, so volley is decent in dungeons prior to second golden trait.

[Deleted]

You don't have 150 focus available the same way as you have with barrage, that's bs. Your theoretical approach is hilarious.
Why don't you look at sims if you are so desperate with your math, MM has downtime and pooling, just like BM has downtime and pooling.

If you move, you can't use AiS, which means you pool, it means your vuln window gets smaller, it means you can cast less AiS with patient sniper. If you then cast MS and SW for movement, it means your Vuln windows will be even smaller and you have to wait on CDs. Why would you even use MS for movement, you have more than enough time to apply Mark and follow up with AiS once the movement is over without losing any damage at all. If you have to move inside your vuln window which you just started, you are fucked too, you are high on focus, you don't want to use SW here (you probably don't even have another charge), using MS will cut you from using a 3rd AiS etc etc. In that case, you could use Barrage and actually use the pooled focus. And it's already 1 less global you could use when you specced into MoC. You won't get that global back.

I'm not saying AmoC won't deal more damage, I'm just saying your #math (hurr, internet memes are funny) is as stupid as his. "Let's leave out 50 variables and my math works" - You.

[Dracodraco]

You don't have 150 focus available the same way as you have with barrage, that's bs. Your theoretical approach is hilarious.

Excuse me? Can you elaborate how I wouldn't have 150 focus available the same way?

-If you use sidewinders on CD you get 300 focus per minute (before haste). Base regen provides 600 focus per minute (before haste).

-Barrage takes up 180 focus per minute. AMOC takes up 30 focus per minute. Ergo you're left with 150 excess focus to spend on 3x aimed shots.

Please, for the love of god, explain to me how this doesn't make sense to you, because it's beyond me to figure that out. It's a fairly simple "if I don't spend X here, I'll have Y+X leftover later"-issue. It's fine saying vague bullshit like you do implying I'm doing something wrong, but then do what I do; Elaborate, come with actual examples and explanations for why you think someone is wrong. It's not upon me to try and figure out what the fuck is going through your head to make you think like you do. It's upon you to make me understand why you think I'm wrong.

[PinDrop]

Volley also destroys your focus pool everytime it hits. It's simply not worth using because it drains way more focus than anything else in order to reach the same damage. Likewise, as you can autoshot and trigger volley mid-aimed cast you could go sub-50 focus occasionally due to it and get interrupted due to sudden starvation. Not good for DPS. BM doesn't have the same issue, so volley is decent in dungeons prior to second golden trait.

I'd love to see the math on this impossible scenario.

[Deleted]

Excuse me? Can you elaborate how I wouldn't have 150 focus available the same way?

-If you use sidewinders on CD you get 300 focus per minute (before haste). Base regen provides 600 focus per minute (before haste).

-Barrage takes up 180 focus per minute. AMOC takes up 30 focus per minute. Ergo you're left with 150 excess focus to spend on 3x aimed shots.

Please, for the love of god, explain to me how this doesn't make sense to you, because it's beyond me to figure that out. It's a fairly simple "if I don't spend X here, I'll have Y+X leftover later"-issue. It's fine saying vague bullshit like you do implying I'm doing something wrong, but then do what I do; Elaborate, come with actual examples and explanations for why you think someone is wrong. It's not upon me to try and figure out what the fuck is going through your head to make you think like you do. It's upon you to make me understand why you think I'm wrong.

I already did. but I edited it, not sure when though

If you move, you can't use AiS, which means you pool, it means your vuln window gets smaller, it means you can cast less AiS with patient sniper. If you then cast MS and SW for movement, it means your Vuln windows will be even smaller and you have to wait on CDs. Why would you even use MS for movement, you have more than enough time to apply Mark and follow up with AiS once the movement is over without losing any damage at all. If you have to move inside your vuln window which you just started, you are fucked too, you are high on focus, you don't want to use SW here (you probably don't even have another charge), using MS will cut you from using a 3rd AiS etc etc. In that case, you could use Barrage and actually use the pooled focus. And it's already 1 less global you could use when you specced into MoC. You won't get that global back.

It's simply not as easy as you make it out to be. If you can't see it, it's okay I guess, there is no helping it then. If you honestly believe you can make perfect use out of what you are saying, you are deluded. What I'm saying is not vague at all, it describes normal encounter situations you should already know and experience too. It's very similar to how Focus Shot (or whatever it was called) worked in WoD and the problems it had in terms of focus management and damage windows/procs and so on.

So your super-math

So, in summary:

Barrage gives 900K extra damage AT THE COST of 150 focus (3x aimed shots) and at least 7 seconds of time spent casting (also more than 3x aimed shots).
Concidering my average aimed shot in 850 gear hits for 350K (PLUS potential artifact procs if you're at your second golden), it means that AMOC is a net gain on EVERYTHING except mobility. DPS wise, it's the right choise for singletarget.

#math. Learn to use it.

Is literally only true in 0% movement fights with 0 encounter mechanics where you can use every GCD at whatever point you wish. Such a huge help. Thanks for mathing out a scenario like that.