Flag-stomping teacher has no regrets, wants student punished

[Shinra1]

alex is such a lame

[Yarathir]

Being placed on administrative leave is not being criticized...

This was about Kaepernick and his "protest".

[Ragedaug]

Because America deserves to be criticized. No nation should be immune, and sometimes it does take shock factors to get a conversation started.

I mena if you hate their expression so much, the person that hates that expression should probably go live in a country where those expressions are not allowed.

Everyone has done something or another to be criticized. So should we all be making symbols of each other and stomping them under foot? By the way, stomping on something doesn't mean "I criticize this". It goes a bit deeper.

- Teacher is within his rights to stomp on the flag.
- School board is within their rights to suspend the teacher for what the teacher says.
- Other people are within their rights to be upset and criticize a flag stomping teacher.

When I think it's gets funny is when you have people who use their 1st amendment right to get offended at other people who used their 1st amendment right to get offended.

Both Right and Left only want free speech when it lines up with their ideology. The difference seems to be that the Right prefer to use the community outrage to deal with it, the Left tends to believes you should use the power of the government to shut down the speech they disagree with.

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Wrong example; hate speech is not covered by free speech clauses of First Amendment. But flag stomping is covered.

And that's how the Left gets around 'free speech'. Any speech you decide can be labeled as "hate speech" and can be deemed illegal. Stomping on the flag shows a level of hate. Stomping on the flag is deemed hateful by many. Many would say stomping on the flag is hate speech. But no one on the Right is suggesting this man should be sent to jail.

TL;DR Hate speech is still covered under free speech.

[Zecora]

well the guys black so he can always sue for racism by default, but anyway
he seems like a well educated man, although some say he took it too far when he stomped on the flag. i fully support his right to do so but hes not free from consequences as its been said.

Oh, nice. Play the race card, that's really mature...

The point is that yes, he IS free from consequences. The School can't fire him since he broke no rules, the only consequences that can come his way is disapproval. Such as all the disapproval from the right-wing "SJW's" in this thread.

And if he's smart, he doesn't give a flying fuck about that.

[May90]

- School board is within their rights to suspend the teacher for what the teacher says.

Only in case of a private institution. Public institutions do not have the right to take action against people for exercising their free speech, unless they explicitly break the job contract.

[Zecora]

Just because he didn't break any laws doesn't mean he can't be fired. Teachers aren't in a position to be making controversial statements. They can be fired on a whim by the school board and all it takes is a group of pissed off parents.

At which point he can sue for wrongful termination, and he'll have a DAMN good case. Also, a teacher's bloody JOB is to make controversial statements to induce their students to think for themselves. If you're against that, you would probably feel more at home in a USSR school of bygone days....

[Ragedaug]

Only in case of a private institution. Public institutions do not have the right to take action against people for exercising their free speech, unless they explicitly break the job contract.

That is not true.

[Stop Pretending]

At which point he can sue for wrongful termination, and he'll have a DAMN good case. Also, a teacher's bloody JOB is to make controversial statements to induce their students to think for themselves. If you're against that, you would probably feel more at home in a USSR school of bygone days....

No he doesn't. He has no case to be precise.

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Only in case of a private institution. Public institutions do not have the right to take action against people for exercising their free speech, unless they explicitly break the job contract.

Not true, try again.

[Kasierith]

At which point he can sue for wrongful termination, and he'll have a DAMN good case. Also, a teacher's bloody JOB is to make controversial statements to induce their students to think for themselves. If you're against that, you would probably feel more at home in a USSR school of bygone days....

A teacher's job is to fulfill his contractual obligations as established by the people who employ him. Beyond that, if they feel that his views reflect badly on them and that his actions significantly deviated from the job he was hired to do, he should be removed from his position. There is no job protection under preaching pseudointellectualism.

It's kind of saddening how many people in this thread are taking the "lol flags are meaningless suck it up" approach. Whatever happened to respecting the beliefs of others? There's a difference between not caring about a symbol and purposefully attacking it to antagonize those who do care about it.

[May90]

That is not true.

Yes it is. That's what free speech is about: freedom from governmental control of your actions.

Otherwise, we can get into a situation in which the teacher talks about the history of slavery, some kid says, "I am offended! I am white, and you are making whites look bad!" - and, boom, the government just got control over what history kids are taught.

[Felnoire]

Another case of Americans overreacting to an exhibition of freedom, one does not need to hate a country to stomp on it's flag nor even burn it. Freedom of expression and all that jazz, the same thing others cling to when they actively spout hatred towards others. This teacher was teaching what the first amendment is meant to allow, which includes the ability to 'defile' a piece of cloth. Context of the class is that the first amendment endows this right to the people to freely express themselves, even if it's not an expression that everyone will like. He was not preaching hatred, nor any anti american stance by treading on a flag, but expressing the very freedom America always preaches about being it's greatest aspect and what soldiers have fought and died to defend. Or are Americans only free to do what they're told to they can do?
Whether or not he should be fired, that's up the to school board. While he has the right to express freely, doesn't mean the school can't cut him loose. Though if their reasoning is cause of they felt his expression of freedom offended them, they probably should resign as they're being the sort of closed minded people one wouldn't want to have in control of what is being taught to one's children. I can understand them getting rid of the fellow for being the center of a controversy, right or not he's drawing heat from the public and the school's reputation would be tarnished by this. It's going to be tarnished anyway, as many will find the act of cutting him loose as wrongful and that the school should be defending their staff for a completely valid and legal representation of what the lesson was to teach. Had they defended him, those that are rather blowing this out of proportion would be incensed that the school is not punishing him.

As for the student, depends, are phones allowed to be switched on in class in America? Seeing as they present a distraction from the learning process, something many a principle would say isn't something they'd encourage. So there is likely grounds for at least a detention, if the school has a no phones on in class policy. At most depends on what provisions this cited law about taking photos is, something I don't know.

I do find it funny though that the very people who complain about SJW for going around being triggered by things that offend them, are kinda doing the exact same thing every time someone expresses themselves in a manner they find offensive. I've no time for either type, while there should be limits to what one can do to offend people (aka hate speech) I've no problem being offended when someone says or does something I don't agree with. I'll express my disagreement, but I don't want them to stop expressing themselves. Nothing happens to you when you're offended, nothing happens to anyone else, the country doesn't explode, and the price of oil doesn't change. Not to mention what is offensive is completely subjective, the hair monster that controls Trump offends me.. with it's uncaring for the laws of physics.

[May90]

It's kind of saddening how many people in this thread are taking the "lol flags are meaningless suck it up" approach. Whatever happened to respecting the beliefs of others? There's a difference between not caring about a symbol and purposefully attacking it to antagonize those who do care about it.

Respecting the beliefs of others doesn't mean not challenging them. Especially at high schools, where kids are supposed to be taught independent and critical thinking, challenging their beliefs is twice as important.

In fact, what I'd like to see at schools is something like this. Optional Christianity class. Most kids in the class are Christian. Teacher asks them inconvenient questions that go against the Christian doctrine. These questions teach kids to not be offended when something they hold as "sacred" is being attacked, but, rather, to use their critical thinking themselves, to challenge themselves.

That's why I think what the teacher did was actually brilliant: there is no better way to teach one critical thinking, than to hit their most sacred belief/dogma with a stick, forcing them to react.

[McFuu]

Government doesn't have a right to punish people for their speech.

Government has the right to fire anyone they feel doesn't represent their interests, like any company.
If the guy at McDonald's wore a fuck McDonald's shirt, he'd be fired, especially wearing it while working.

People desecrating the flag for protest pisses me off, but it's their right. This guy isn't desecrating the flag for a protest, he's doing it because he can. His lack of forethought into the matter is particularly disturbing. You don't teach people stealing is bad by stealing, you don't teach them about the Titanic by something them in ice cold water, all against their will.

I don't know if he deserves to be fired, but definitely a suspension for the remainder of the school year.
I think maybe is heart was in the right place, but his method was poorly considered.

[Kasierith]

Respecting the beliefs of others doesn't mean not challenging them. Especially at high schools, where kids are supposed to be taught independent and critical thinking, challenging their beliefs is twice as important.

In fact, what I'd like to see at schools is something like this. Optional Christianity class. Most kids in the class are Christian. Teacher asks them inconvenient questions that go against the Christian doctrine. These questions teach kids to not be offended when something they hold as "sacred" is being attacked, but, rather, to use their critical thinking themselves, to challenge themselves.

That's why I think what the teacher did was actually brilliant: there is no better way to teach one critical thinking, than to hit their most sacred belief/dogma with a stick, forcing them to react.

So his goal was to incite a reaction, and then throw a fit over the reaction? If he wants to induce a response from his students, that's fine, but ultimately he isn't being respectful towards the people he is teaching. They do not have to agree with him. They should not be forced into mental lockstep with his beliefs. There is no real critical thinking element involved if there is only one ultimate result. And yes, I get what you are saying.. the most influential teacher in my life was a Russian orthodox priest specializing in the old testament who, instead of just teaching writ and passages, went into detail about how stories and legends are formed, and how the Bible is ultimately the product of normal people applying the supernatural to the natural. Which is pretty unorthodox for the Russian church. But he did so with an inherent respect for the people who were religious and who ultimately and outspokenly disagreed with him.

[Saucexorzski]

Respecting the beliefs of others doesn't mean not challenging them. Especially at high schools, where kids are supposed to be taught independent and critical thinking, challenging their beliefs is twice as important.

In fact, what I'd like to see at schools is something like this. Optional Christianity class. Most kids in the class are Christian. Teacher asks them inconvenient questions that go against the Christian doctrine. These questions teach kids to not be offended when something they hold as "sacred" is being attacked, but, rather, to use their critical thinking themselves, to challenge themselves.

That's why I think what the teacher did was actually brilliant: there is no better way to teach one critical thinking, than to hit their most sacred belief/dogma with a stick, forcing them to react.

Id rather see a Muslim class like that May, but i think you would be more success with your Christian one.

[Alydael]

Teacher deserves to be fired. Someone like that shouldn't be in a position to influence the minds of children.

Note I say 'fired'. Not sued/jailed/executed/forced to watch meet the kardashians back to back.

I would go to jail before I watched the Kartrashians back and back. If I was forced to watch the Kartrashians back to back, it would drive me to do something crazy and illegal- so I would be in jail anyway. It is a no win for me.

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I don't think I'll ever find it not weird the level of reverence a large number of Americans give to a piece of cloth.

I mean, his point about free speech is kinda on the nose considering the supposed vitriol it's attracted.

Really? You have no concept or understanding of symbolism? You might want to retake that middle school English class- you missed some things.

[Unclemap]

Some people want to think they can't be punished because of their ties to their job title, or occupation, or status in the community. The fact of the matter is, the laws were set fourth to protect us from people like this.

[Deleted]

-snip drivel-

Taking offence is exactly what SJW do, they get offended by something that is really not something that you should get offended about. Or well triggered as its so often called, this guy got triggered by someone else stomping on a piece of cloth.

Again, the only thing that should have happened is that kid getting an F, because clearly he did not get the lesson.

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A teacher's job is to fulfill his contractual obligations as established by the people who employ him. Beyond that, if they feel that his views reflect badly on them and that his actions significantly deviated from the job he was hired to do, he should be removed from his position. There is no job protection under preaching pseudointellectualism.

It's kind of saddening how many people in this thread are taking the "lol flags are meaningless suck it up" approach. Whatever happened to respecting the beliefs of others? There's a difference between not caring about a symbol and purposefully attacking it to antagonize those who do care about it.

He wasn't preaching pseudo intellectualism, he was demonstrating how the 1st amendment worked. Seeing as he managed to trigger these kids i think this is a lesson that they needed learning quickly.

The only thing saddening here is the amount of people that revere a piece of cloth or the things that it may stand for until there is absolutely no room left for discussion. The whole "anti- America" thing is just ridiculous, there isn't another nation in the west that has this kind of behaviour. The only other nations that may exhibit this kind of behaviour are along the line of North Korea. This kind of reasoning is ultimately very destructive as the only thing it does is divide people for silly reasons.

[Stop Pretending]

Government doesn't have a right to punish people for their speech.

They do if they are an employee. Even you know that, well you should have.

[JohnBrown1917]

Some people want to think they can't be punished because of their ties to their job title, or occupation, or status in the community. The fact of the matter is, the laws were set fourth to protect us from people like this.

Laws to protect you from being offended?