From a Vanilla Player: The reason why I think WoW lost its glory.

[Xires]

Hello, in advance I would like to apologize about my english, it is not my native language and I may not be able to completely explain what I want to.
My name is Gabriel, and I play WoW since late Vanilla or early The Burning Crusade, and World of Warcraft always been with me since then. I had breaks, like most of you, and skipped only one expansion, Warlords of Draenor, mainly because the aesthetic and lore was not interesting to me that time.
Now, returning to play Legion, and I found out something really sad about the game and the way it is heading, I have every class character past level 80, and it is something that happened across the board on all characters that I have: The game is moving towards a complete dumbed down and simplified version of what it was years ago.
In my point of view, what made WoW interesting, was not dailies or rep farming, or all the grind related, end game is used to be the boring part actually. WoW was more interesting because how I could, with hard work, differentiate my characters, like, my mage, from every other mage in my realm. I am not talking aesthetically only, but my build chosen, profession chosen, my gear chosen, the number of spells available to me for different purposes other than damage itself (remember amplify magic? Buffs? Mana Shield? Evocation?). Those spells made playing Mage something interesting, It was like, if you had enough time playing and learning your class, you could really be better than the other mage guy by just using your arsenal wiser. I could be half frost and half fire before specializations, I could have Ice Barrier and Fire Nova by going down both talent trees, trying different things was fun, PvP and PvE wise.
I know their intention is to make the game easier for new people, but they should not forget that when we once started playing back then, what made us enjoy the game itself was this same complexity that is going lost progressively. I feel like BG's nowadays are no different than a match of Counter-Strike, no trinkets procs, no profession stuffs and no anything that would make you feel different from the other guy, where all are the same thing and what really matters is your skill, internet connection and communication. It is good to have your skills in such a place where they are essential for the gameplay, but your time investing should be rewarded with a more personalized, customized and fun experience with your character.
I don't know if I made myself clear, but it is like, I had a deeper relation with my main character back then, and now he is just another dumbed down version of itself that runs around with different clothing thanks to transmog.
Thanks for listening, but it is not like I am on a nostalgia crysis, It is like the game lost the passion the people had on designing it and are making their jobs easier by just creating a less organic gameplay environment.

Ps.: Even Artifact weapons is bad in my opinion, you end up being with the same very weapon as everyone else. Not fun at all.

Problems pointed by other players that I agree:

- Epics are too easily available and raiding is not as rewarding as it was anymore.
- Cross-realm stuff made your realm community non existing.

No you don't. It is called transmog and it has a skill tree of its own. Who cares if the stats are all the same? This is much better because we are almost a month in and my weapon still gets more power all the time vise going the old way and once I have a weapon..I'm done and I don't need that boss anymore. Warforged/Titanforged help make it to where you don't mind doing that same boss that dropped your best trinket because you can get a better version of it next week if luck is on your side. Raiding is even MORE rewarding then it was before and you obviously don't play mythic mode if you think that the old raiding was.
Who cares about realm community? All that means is longer wait times for you to do what you wanna do. I don't want to go back to sitting in trade chat waiting for a decent group to form over 1-2 hour time frame.
Vanilla also had BAD GEAR. Agi/int stats anyone?
Their has ALWAYS been a grind in WoW or any other MMO if you haven't learned that by now then perhaps it is time for you to move on with life and get a new hobby.
Yeah, you could go down different tree's and pick the wrong talents instead of the talents you are SUPPOSED to pick i.e cookie cutter talent tree. Instead of changing it now based off of fights. You used to pick your cookie cutter talent tree and then never look at it again....fun, huh? NOT!

Epics became easy to get in TBC so at this point...damn near the entire lifecycle of the game. STOP LOOKING AT COLOR!!!! It doesn't matter.
Dumbed down version? Yeah...because being a fire Mage and keeping 5 stacks of scorch and then spamming fireball praying for crits was sooooooo interesting. Also have a bunch of talents then you NEVER used was sooo grand, right?
You act as if playing any class was ever hard. Mana shield? NEVER used it as I didn't want to burn through...my mana. Amp magic? Ithink their was maybe 1 fight where it was used. We still have evocation for arcane...you don't need it for fire or frost. End game used to be the boring part? Uh......no?
Yeah, and you can still be better then other Mages by learning your class..that...hasn't ever changed. Ever.
More customized? Ummm....LOL!!!! What???? You mean when their was no transmog and everyone ran around with the same gear...yeah.....good argument /rolls eyes. If you had a different build then the cookie cutter build that every Mage was supposed to have then you were playing wrong, period.

- - - Updated - - -

Easy solution, close 75% of the total realms (they are EMPTY() and merge the people in the 25%. Then you can took out cross realms. They have a lot of servers for nothing, they don't need that many servers.

And about loosing subs for the content, maybe. The problem (i think) is not the lack of content (maybe in WoD yes), but the game is more easy and you do the content much more fast than back in the day. For example, to clear Molten Core they need months,to clear today emerald nightmare 1 day.

Molten core was super easy. Boss fights were super simple. Raids are by far more difficult then they used to be. The difference is their is a bigger bracket of experienced players and their are a TON of vids and guides about those same raids. We didn't have that back in the day and back in the day when raids involved 40 players you could have 15 bad players and still carry them- you can't do that now. I challenge you to go and clear mythic content in a week or a day. Not even the best guilds in the world can clear it in a day. Sorry but your argument as weak as it is...holds no water and is 100% false.

[Deleted]

The game is just old and the gameplay is outdated too. Tab targeting in 2016...

[Deleted]

Well maybe but look in the 10th aniversary, people suck at MC, why?

It's so easy...jet they don't know nothing about CC, they don't know how to do Baron Gedon, they don't know how to do Garr...well...

Also, you are talking about mithyc, a thing than only 1% of people see in WoW. Raids back then where the same for everybody, same difficultie. So is your argument the weak one.

[-Joker-]

After almost 12 years, anything is likely to lose its shine/glory. There have been many things along the way that helped the shine wear off. Cross realms were probably the big one. It created animosity among some players and assured realms of never again being allowed to self-regulate their players. In Vanilla and TBC, there was no Dungeon Finder, Raid Finder, or Cross-Realm Zones. You only saw people from your realm. You had to look for groups in the city, and physically run/ride to an instance entrance, or be summoned by stone or warlock. People knew each other. Guilds raided together. If you were a troll or a jerk, you were blackballed on your own realm.

With the inception of the forced social interaction as realms began to lose players by the thousands, we no longer had control of who we interacted with, or who was allowed into the Dungeons/Raids with us. People were no longer held accountable for their actions, nor held to a higher and friendlier standard. Had they just merged the realms, and left the realm moniker off the character's head, CRZ would never have been needed. LFR and LFD could have been relegated to just that large realm, rather than searching multiple realms, desperately trying to find players to keep the world from looking so empty.

With Legion, it seems they got a lot of things right, and the world is full again without the need for CRZ. Personal loot and resources makes the open zones more player friendly. Plus, the world tagging option helps override the need to fight for quest mobs. Players are now, unbeknownst to them, helping each other via an invisible grouping option. For the first time in a long time, I feel like I am questing in zones with other players, and not just fighting for mobs and mine veins. If anything, this expansion is a necessary first step back toward restoring some of the lost glory.

[Atrea]

The reason why I think WoW lost its glory:

Because it's fucking 12 years old. Go look at a 2004 vehicle and tell me it has held up as well.

Christ you people are insufferable sometimes.

[Deleted]

Well i will love to have a 2004 BMW 3-series/M3, is a fucking great car.

[Deleted]

I think back then everything was just new and fresh and something we never experienced before. But in my opinion WoW has aged pretty well. Some of us might not be able to say that about themselves, too.

[Glorious Leader]

Well maybe but look in the 10th aniversary, people suck at MC, why?

It's so easy...jet they don't know nothing about CC, they don't know how to do Baron Gedon, they don't know how to do Garr...well...

Also, you are talking about mithyc, a thing than only 1% of people see in WoW. Raids back then where the same for everybody, same difficultie. So is your argument the weak one.

If you had raiding at the same difficulty for everyone roughly analgous to mc lvl complexity but with all the fine tuning theyve done over the years it would be a joke. Youd clear that raid in an hour. Multiple difficulty modes is a BLESSING for hardcore raiders because it allows the developers to cater to them without worry about lower skill brackets. One size raiding would be really really easy raiding. Maybe slightly harder than wod lfr.

[Sir Andy]

Not everyone had the necessity to pick up cookie cutter talents, some people, like me, like to try new things outside the box.

And do suboptimal damage because you missed the talent that gave your Frostbolt 1/2/3/4/5% more damage.

[Vineri]

If you had raiding at the same difficulty for everyone roughly analgous to mc lvl complexity but with all the fine tuning theyve done over the years it would be a joke. Youd clear that raid in an hour. Multiple difficulty modes is a BLESSING for hardcore raiders because it allows the developers to cater to them without worry about lower skill brackets. One size raiding would be really really easy raiding. Maybe slightly harder than wod lfr.

Yet if you ever played back then you would know about a weekly triumph of getting 1 boss further. Some weeks there was no progressions. Strats were studied and posted on guild forum websites. The last bosses were no joke, regardless of how anyone tries to simplify them. Mats farmed all week, potion galore made.

Shit, guilds would even give "raid points" for anyone who donated mats / scrolls / potions to the guild. For youngin's who dont know what raid points are, they were a way to measure your value to a guild. Drops were bidding upon with "raid points". Think bit coins. Every participant received some when a boss was downed. The value was higher if it was a 1st, or one that took many deaths.

MC was no joke back in 2005-2006. Later patches ended up over powering MC, sort of. Player skill was still key - gear won't help shoty gaming. But if anyone thinks MC was a cake-walk, the jokes on you - there were STILL guilds who struggled with it all the way to TBC.

(Unless the people bragging are the top 0.1% of players, in which case Pffft!!!)

[Sanguinerd]

I like how people think adding they're a "vanilla player" adds any form of merit before starting a discussion. The only reason WoW "lost" anything is because it's NOT new anymore. People really need to learn to stop looking backwards already, good things are still here people are just not using them and changing that starts with you.


Won't even go into your talent spiel OP.. such nonsense ;/

[Deleted]

why do always strange casual gamer complain about vanilla and modern wow? the couldnt play the game back then and they arent able today.

but, there are in fact some changes i really miss

-aggro management: back in vanilla tanks had to work their ass off to keep aggro and dds hat to be careful on crits
-difficulty: didnt CC one add in a group of 3? - wipe. didnt notice the pat or added a second group -wipe
Dungeons were much much more difficult than today and i really miss the old playstyle. now you just jump into the groups and aoe everything.
-raid mechanics: Onyxias very sensitive aggro management, Majordomus CC Rotation, Garrs addfight, Vaelestraz 6-Tank aggromanagement... The game got a lot of new ideas, but also lost very good ones. Now all bosses are basically, kill adds, avoid zones

[jaxxer]

sad be true.. hes %100 right. Legion makes me play back like old days i dk why stil..

[Zalamander]

If you have a problem with WoW based on what we've been given in Legion, then you should really just move on.

Stop posting on MMO-Champ and go find another game or activity to keep you busy, because this is one of the deepest and best expansions Blizz has done with the game. If you aren't into what is on the table right now, you are no longer interested in WoW.

And true, it is not the same as vanilla - and it never will be again. Much like styles change and the world evolves and progresses ... so has WoW.

Cheers.

Stop being delusional. Its the smallest expansion so far. Even in Mists of Pandaria I felt there was more things to do and explore in the huge awesome world when it was this old, while Legion me and many others are already growing tired of.

If you really think this expansion is deep and full of content I congratulate you for being able to enjoy the most shallow expansion yet and prey you will still do it in another month from now, even tho I seriously doubt it. Even WoD was more fun still this far in than Legion is sadly. Legion is WoD but garrison missions turned into world quests instead. Sure its better at the start but after doing just a few you have seen it all.

[Glorious Leader]

Yet if you ever played back then you would know about a weekly triumph of getting 1 boss further. Some weeks there was no progressions. Strats were studied and posted on guild forum websites. The last bosses were no joke, regardless of how anyone tries to simplify them. Mats farmed all week, potion galore made.

Shit, guilds would even give "raid points" for anyone who donated mats / scrolls / potions to the guild. For youngin's who dont know what raid points are, they were a way to measure your value to a guild. Drops were bidding upon with "raid points". Think bit coins. Every participant received some when a boss was downed. The value was higher if it was a 1st, or one that took many deaths.

MC was no joke back in 2005-2006. Later patches ended up over powering MC, sort of. Player skill was still key - gear won't help shoty gaming. But if anyone thinks MC was a cake-walk, the jokes on you - there were STILL guilds who struggled with it all the way to TBC.

(Unless the people bragging are the top 0.1% of players, in which case Pffft!!!)

This was mostly due to how poorly designed and.coded everything was. Not actual complexity or challenge. It was a joke. If you had those same fighta in 2016 wow you would plow through them. The raiding base is far more sophisticated and the game ia far better programmed.

[Deleted]

Why I keep reading the game is easy and dumb and meanwhile only 1% (?) of players clear all mythic content before its nerfed?

That has nothing to do with what he said, though.

Some people think that mythic raiding is hard. It's not. I've done it (before nerfs) and it's not "hard" per-se, it's just quite demanding (time-wise). In order for you to understand this, I'll give you the example of the current situation.

Mythic raiding will be "released" soon, but it's not "there" yet. Heroic raiding is available - once per week per character. In theory, if you were to run it with your guild, you might get, say, 5-6 items (3 from seal rolls, 2-3 using DKP, loot council, personal loot, whatever). That would mean you MIGHT get 865 gear in 5-6 slots. Or you could get ZERO. That is the case with some people in my guild (got gold on all rolls during the heroic raid, their loot didn't drop or went to someone else). These are people with limited time to play. They can show up to a few raids a week, they barely have time to do world quests on most days.

But now consider someone with lots of time on their hands. Like someone who's unemployed (either because he can't find a job, doesn't want one, is fine living on benefits or is "rich" and doesn't need to work). They can (and like to) play as close to 24/7 as humanly possible. One such person could (with 4 other people like him/her) simply spam the new mythic+ dungeons, get 3 chests from each. There is a base item level limit this week (I think base 850), but you can and will get warforged/titanforged items. There's also no "save"/lockout for those mythic+ dungeons, you can spam them all day long. Those people could have full 865+ gear in every slot in a single day, simply because they have the time to do it. That loot will come in handy when mythic raids are released. Where one guild ("casuals") raids with 3-4 people that have SOME 865 loot in A FEW slots, another guild raids with people who are way over 865 already.

Of course, this applies to crafting gear, farming mats, reputation etc as well. If you've got nothing better to do, you'll be 850 on the day you reach level 110. Of course, the same thing applies when it comes to haivng "consumables" (with flasks being 4-5k on my realm on some nights, pots being 900g, raid food being 120g/pop). You've got the whole day to farm them, might as well get 100 flasks in one day, why not (and you're likely to have a couple of alts with alchemy/enchanting/inscription just in case)

Obviously, people with more time (and 865+) will clear mythic quite easily (after a number of tries/wipes; again, a matter of time; some people have time to wipe for 3 hours; others are just getting warmed up after 6 hours).

It's all down to time spent. It isn't about "skill" or "hard" and it never was.

Speaking as an ex-hardcore raider, if it matters. In a previous guild (very hardcore, think top20 worldwide), I was one of 3 people with jobs. I still remember the GM being pissed off with the two of us because we "missed" some hours of practice on PTR one morning (we were at work; the third guy gave up on his holiday, took days off to practice on PTR). DKP fines/neg and all that.

If it's true that 1% of players clear mythic before nerfs (I wouldn't know, never counted them), it's not because mythic is hard; it's because 99% of the players have a real life to take care of - whether that means family, jobs, going out, gym etc.

The OP does have a point. Some (apparently useless) abilities that existed in vanilla were EXTREMELY useful in pvp, if you knew when/how to use them. As a random example, a mage who dueled a warlock certainly knew how amplify magic/detect magic could change the battle.

[Eurhetemec]

MC was no joke back in 2005-2006. Later patches ended up over powering MC, sort of. Player skill was still key - gear won't help shoty gaming. But if anyone thinks MC was a cake-walk, the jokes on you - there were STILL guilds who struggled with it all the way to TBC.

(Unless the people bragging are the top 0.1% of players, in which case Pffft!!!)

Untrue, sir.

I'm living proof that MC was a joke. I mean, I was an experience MMO player before WoW, sure, but when WoW was in the early MC days, I had huge alt-itis. I had no-one above about level 45 (the horrible 40-50 quest drought was a bit of an issue too). So whilst my friends were raiding, I never had (in WoW, obvs. I had in EQ and DAoC and other games).

So my best bud at the time was one of the main healers in a guild I wasn't in at that time (I was later), playing a Druid. I had played Druids a little (into the 30s). He had a raid scheduled, but had also got a party to go to. So, in order to keep his DKP/attendance, and so on, he got me to play his Druid for the MC raid - this was before it was "on farm". Thankfully the GM hated voice-chat so that wasn't an issue (he had a strong accent).

He didn't give me any instructions, but suggested I read a guide. I forgot to read the guide, but then time rolled around and saying "OH SHIT", I logged on, and pretended I was him, whilst desperately looking up where MC even was and how to get there.

If MC was super-challenging, you'd have expected me to cause a problem. In reality, even with just the pared-down fight explanations the GM was giving, and my limited experience of Druids, I was top healer, and people were going "Wow Forgegod, you are doing an amazing job tonight!" and so on. I dealt with the mechanics, I did my job, I got him his DKP (his items didn't drop), and I laughed hysterically as all the "OMG WOW RAIDZ R HARD" stuff I'd been told was revealed to be silly beggars.

I later joined the guild, and seriously, 15 out of 40 of our raiders were incompetent, or cyb0ring the whole time, or just chatting and joking (in text) and keeping morale up, but barely playing, yet we were equal most progressed guild on the server, and the first one to finish BWL and AQ40. The level of play was not high. I'd say they'd have struggled with some Normal stuff from WotLK onwards, if they hadn't gotten a lot better at the game. As it was, the 25s stuff in TBC forced us to dump the 15 slacking players, but that actually took a lot of fun out of raiding, sadly.

[Deleted]

Wow have become a solo multiplayer game, a bit sad.

[Otimus]

My two cents about challenge, and I'm sure I'll catch a lot of flack for this opinion, no doubt:

If you want real, truly genuine challenge, you probably shouldn't be looking at MMOs for it.

We're talking about a genre with enemies without AI where almost the entire difficulty, at any level, really, comes from time commitment and organizational skill with a speck of social skill in there. The skill floor is extremely low, anyone can do almost everything in the game except for the top level stuff by half assing it. Probably not even half assing it, probably fifth assing it, or something. The highest end just requires everyone to follow the "correct" "routine" on point, more or less. The skill ceiling isn't much higher than it's skill floor. In fact, there's pretty much only a wrong way and a right way to do most things, not much in the middle, the rest pretty much is just how fast you're able to do that right thing, and who you know and are grouped up with that will determine the ultimate skill level.

I've never really understood the obsession with challenge in the genre. It's like whining about challenge in old turn based RPGs. There's only so much you can do within the confines of a genre before you turn it into something it isn't. That's probably why people push for more social things in the genre, because that's mostly it's true strength, and when you come away from that, people start to really see MMO's for what they really are moreso than when they're blinded by fun times with friends. (Which are basic RPG's with timesinks and subscription fees). The problem there is, is that pretty much no one really wants to be social, and the MMORPG is basically at it's core a niche genre, and Blizzard has spent all it's years not wanting it to be. There's a reason most RPG's healthily thrive on a few hundred thousand players, and mostly always have before WoW and (mostly) after. One of my favorite things to say is, is that what Blizzard WANTS WoW to be, what WoW actually is, what the average player thinks WoW is, and what a hardcore player thinks WoW is are all in conflict with one another, and it's actually kind of silly. Biggest problem probably stemming from the fact that WoW attracted a gigantic audience that probably should never have been playing MMORPGs in the first place and don't even know it (I totally include myself in that category, too), and that's probably muddied the game more than anything else. Well, that, and the fact the game is really freaking old.

- - - Updated - - -

solo multiplayer

You can't be both of those things.

[willtron]

I'll put it down to the game being 12 years old. The vanilla player base is 12 years older with changing circumstances in life. Furthermore, it's very hard to innovate over that time. It's nothing complex or a single given moment that changed the game. If anything, I'd say the nuances of each expansion represent a period in the gaming market and blizzard as a whole. Not because of a mechanic change or whatever.