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  1. #501
    The Unstoppable Force May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saucexorzski View Post
    Id rather see a Muslim class like that May, but i think you would be more success with your Christian one.
    By all means, Muslim class like that would work as well. Given that the US is majorly Christian country though, Christian class like this would have more effect. Muslim class like this in Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. would be very effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    So his goal was to incite a reaction, and then throw a fit over the reaction? If he wants to induce a response from his students, that's fine, but ultimately he isn't being respectful towards the people he is teaching. They do not have to agree with him. They should not be forced into mental lockstep with his beliefs. There is no real critical thinking element involved if there is only one ultimate result. And yes, I get what you are saying.. the most influential teacher in my life was a Russian orthodox priest specializing in the old testament who, instead of just teaching writ and passages, went into detail about how stories and legends are formed, and how the Bible is ultimately the product of normal people applying the supernatural to the natural. Which is pretty unorthodox for the Russian church. But he did so with an inherent respect for the people who were religious and who ultimately and outspokenly disagreed with him.
    Once again, being respectful towards the people doesn't mean doing only things they are okay with. If the teacher talks about evolution, should he be altering his narrative out of respect to those in class who believe in creationism and are offended by what they see as blasphemy? The teacher's job is to get kids thinking, and it is only done effectively when kids are forced to question their deepest beliefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  2. #502
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thMountainMan View Post
    I---
    This just reads like you thinking everybody not on your side is a 'liberal'.

  3. #503
    Let me repeat it again.

    Schools (pre K, elementary, middle/junior, high ) are not a free speech zone in the United States.

    Public universities are free speech zones, so there is more leeweay there if he was teaching there.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post



    Really? You have no concept or understanding of symbolism? You might want to retake that middle school English class- you missed some things.
    I didn't say I failed to see that people think of it as a symbol, please learn to read. In any other country, the ridiculous level of symbolism attached to the flag would have you labelled as an extremist nationalist. In America, the opposite is true. That's what's weird.

  5. #505
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    By all means, Muslim class like that would work as well. Given that the US is majorly Christian country though, Christian class like this would have more effect. Muslim class like this in Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc. would be very effective.


    Once again, being respectful towards the people doesn't mean doing only things they are okay with. If the teacher talks about evolution, should he be altering his narrative out of respect to those in class who believe in creationism and are offended by what they see as blasphemy? The teacher's job is to get kids thinking, and it is only done effectively when kids are forced to question their deepest beliefs.
    Being respectful has shit all to do with the actual flag stomping. It has to do with when he challenged the kid, and the kid responded, he then got angry and went after the kid under privacy violations (which is horribly hilarious). Presenting a challenge to others is perfectly fine. But he should respect his students enough to understand when their response isn't something he agrees with. Again, if his goal is to strongarm them into one specific understanding, it has nothing at all to do with inducing critical thinking and everything to do with abusing a position of authority to push his own personal viewpoint.

  6. #506
    Legendary! Zecora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    A teacher's job is to fulfill his contractual obligations as established by the people who employ him. Beyond that, if they feel that his views reflect badly on them and that his actions significantly deviated from the job he was hired to do, he should be removed from his position. There is no job protection under preaching pseudointellectualism.
    A teachers job is to educate the students, that INCLUDES educating them on the freedom of speech and how you might not like what other uses said freedom for, but you still have to respect their right to do it. So long as said teacher does his (or her) job and doesn't break the rules of the school (which the teacher in question didn't do, as it has been shown numerous times in this thread), any termination would be wrongful and give ample grounds to sue the school.

    You may not like the WAY in which said teacher exemplified the freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean he wasn't well within his rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    It's kind of saddening how many people in this thread are taking the "lol flags are meaningless suck it up" approach. Whatever happened to respecting the beliefs of others? There's a difference between not caring about a symbol and purposefully attacking it to antagonize those who do care about it.
    I find it significantly sadder to see how people who leapt to the defence of Charlie Hebdo and the Muhammed charicatures now acts as if freedom of speech doesn't apply when it regards symbols that THEY care about. Although "sad" doesn't cover it, "sickening" is better, as the double standards make me sick.

    Either you support freedom of speech regardless, or you are a hypocrite. End of story.

  7. #507
    The First Amendment means nothing if the government can punish you for unpopular speech. He works for a public school, so he should not be fired, and legally he probably can't be fired. His best course of action at this point is, unfortunately, to sue the school district. The students, however, should not be punished for filming him.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Matchu View Post
    I didn't say I failed to see that people think of it as a symbol, please learn to read. In any other country, the ridiculous level of symbolism attached to the flag would have you labelled as an nationalist extremist. In America, the opposite is true. That's what's weird.
    That isn't true.

    Germans, Greeks, Italians while they are fearful of the return of fascism and are quick to stop national displays they do not disrespect their own flags and heritage in this way.

    Flag stomping and burning in the United States is more common, because we have more expanded form of free speech compared to other western countries. But even the United States has limits with "free speech".

  9. #509
    Legendary! Zecora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stop Pretending View Post
    No he doesn't. He has no case to be precise.
    Getting fired without having broken any rules, laws or his contract? Oh yes, he has an excellent case if that happens.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Huulo View Post
    The First Amendment means nothing if the government can punish you for unpopular speech. He works for a public school, so he should not be fired, and legally he probably can't be fired. His best course of action at this point is, unfortunately, to sue the school district. The students, however, should not be punished for filming him.
    Why not? The school has rules when it comes to use of mobile phones and cameras, and publishing film or images of someone without their permission is illegal. So why shouldn't they be punished?

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombergy View Post
    The indoctrination of youth and the programming of radical anti-American sentiment is an ever growing and ever vicious plague but its nice to see that its not a nation wide pandemic ...yet.
    Well good thing that's not at all what is happening. What is more American than expressing your freedoms? Oh right, worshiping the a cloth is way more important than the rights that it represents. The Constitution, unfortunately for you, applies to everyone. So you're going to have to put up with people doing as they wish, just like unfortunately we have to put up with your nonsense.

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Being respectful has shit all to do with the actual flag stomping. It has to do with when he challenged the kid, and the kid responded, he then got angry and went after the kid under privacy violations (which is horribly hilarious). Presenting a challenge to others is perfectly fine. But he should respect his students enough to understand when their response isn't something he agrees with. Again, if his goal is to strongarm them into one specific understanding, it has nothing at all to do with inducing critical thinking and everything to do with abusing a position of authority to push his own personal viewpoint.
    Exactly.

    Thank you.

    This teacher wants to use free speech but hampers the free speech of his students.

  12. #512
    Legendary! Zecora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Exactly.

    Thank you.

    This teacher wants to use free speech but hampers the free speech of his students.
    Filming someone without their permission and then publishing that movie clip as well as using it to try to get said person fired is not "freedom of speech", it is douchebaggerish behaviour that not only violates the school rules and the privacy laws, but also fits perfectly with the kind of behaviour so many right-wingers on these forums love to label "SJW".

  13. #513
    The Unstoppable Force May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Being respectful has shit all to do with the actual flag stomping. It has to do with when he challenged the kid, and the kid responded, he then got angry and went after the kid under privacy violations (which is horribly hilarious). Presenting a challenge to others is perfectly fine. But he should respect his students enough to understand when their response isn't something he agrees with. Again, if his goal is to strongarm them into one specific understanding, it has nothing at all to do with inducing critical thinking and everything to do with abusing a position of authority to push his own personal viewpoint.
    I was talking about specifically flag stomping. The way he acted afterwards might not be right, but since people are discussing flag stomping in this particular thread, that's what I was on about.
    Quote Originally Posted by King Candy View Post
    I can't explain it because I'm an idiot, and I have to live with that post for the rest of my life. Better to just smile and back away slowly. Ignore it so that it can go away.
    Thanks for the avatar goes to Carbot Animations and Sy.

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Unclemap View Post
    Some people want to think they can't be punished because of their ties to their job title, or occupation, or status in the community. The fact of the matter is, the laws were set fourth to protect us from people like this.
    Actually they were set forth to protect people like this, not to protect us from people like this. Sorry that you have the world backwards.

  15. #515
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yirrah View Post
    A teachers job is to educate the students, that INCLUDES educating them on the freedom of speech and how you might not like what other uses said freedom for, but you still have to respect their right to do it. So long as said teacher does his (or her) job and doesn't break the rules of the school (which the teacher in question didn't do, as it has been shown numerous times in this thread), any termination would be wrongful and give ample grounds to sue the school.

    You may not like the WAY in which said teacher exemplified the freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean he wasn't well within his rights.
    Last I checked, specific expressions of freedom of expression are not protected classes, and thus are not protective measures against at will termination. And somehow I doubt that a high school teacher has the clout to get a more protective job contract. They can hire or fire based on subjective criteria. As for prattling on about "but it's in his rights!!!" no one is putting him in prison. Him being fired for presenting information in a means that the school board feels is inappropriate, should their final decision be to do so, is not a violation of his civil liberties. He is entitled to freedom of speech, not a job.

    I find it significantly sadder to see how people who leapt to the defence of Charlie Hebdo and the Muhammed charicatures now acts as if freedom of speech doesn't apply when it regards symbols that THEY care about. Although "sad" doesn't cover it, "sickening" is better, as the double standards make me sick.

    Either you support freedom of speech regardless, or you are a hypocrite. End of story.
    Unless you can actually track down any such involvement that I had in the Hebdo threads and the like, I'm going to write this as a silly non sequitur, completely unrelated to anything that I have said so far.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Yirrah View Post
    Filming someone without their permission and then publishing that movie clip as well as using it to try to get said person fired is not "freedom of speech", it is douchebaggerish behaviour that not only violates the school rules and the privacy laws, but also fits perfectly with the kind of behaviour so many right-wingers on these forums love to label "SJW".
    In some states filming like this is allowed especially if it is a public venue. Whether a student has a right to film his teacher is up for debate the rest is not.

    And trying to stifle a student's free speech to support the teacher's is incredibly ironic.
    Last edited by Mafic; 2016-09-25 at 03:56 PM.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Yirrah View Post
    Filming someone without their permission and then publishing that movie clip as well as using it to try to get said person fired is not "freedom of speech", it is douchebaggerish behaviour that not only violates the school rules and the privacy laws, but also fits perfectly with the kind of behaviour so many right-wingers on these forums love to label "SJW".
    It can't be SJW, it's standing for the cloth that was made in China! USA USA USA. Wiretapping doesn't apply when it's against the enemies of the state like this teacher who would dare place his shoes on 99% cotton 1% polyester.

  18. #518
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    I was talking about specifically flag stomping. The way he acted afterwards might not be right, but since people are discussing flag stomping in this particular thread, that's what I was on about.
    I was mostly focusing on the "wants student punished" thing. It just seems... so horribly backwards to publicly express ones right to freedom of expression to entice a reaction for others, and then to barrel down and attack a kid with legal threats for essentially doing the same.

  19. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    That isn't true.

    Germans, Greeks, Italians while they are fearful of the return of fascism and are quick to stop national displays they do not disrespect their own flags and heritage in this way.

    Flag stomping and burning in the United States is more common, because we have more expanded form of free speech compared to other western countries. But even the United States has limits with "free speech".
    I do not think a German, Greek or Italian would care very much if someone stomped on their flag, most would just shrug it off or go /giggle and /point.

    The only reason flag burning in the US is a thing is because you people seem to revere it on a level that is only rivalled by North Korea.

  20. #520
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yirrah View Post
    Filming someone without their permission and then publishing that movie clip as well as using it to try to get said person fired is not "freedom of speech", it is douchebaggerish behaviour that not only violates the school rules and the privacy laws, but also fits perfectly with the kind of behaviour so many right-wingers on these forums love to label "SJW".
    So you have a deep seated hatred for journalism than? Not talking about modern tv media, but journalism in itself.

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