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  1. #721
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    No only the EU clings to the misplaced belief that the UK wants access to the single market, it really is not fussed.
    Lol. Come back to say that again once the UK loses the EU market and many big corporations leave the UK because of it. You've only just scratched the surface of your economic suffering.

  2. #722
    Most Americans would be happy to see the EU army formed..it means the excuses for why Europe can't spend money on their own armies would stop.

    It would also mean that they will fail spectacularly and that Putin would laugh all the way to the bank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    But doesn't.
    If we took all EU defense spending and pooled it, it would work out fine - If the Uk and France agreed to build one type of carrier, in one wharf, they could build 4 instead of struggling to deploy two.
    They are not going to agree to build one carrier, because these two countries have different mission goals. The UK wants nothing to do with continental Europe other than NATO endeavors.

    The German army alone is stronger then Israel, and again, they wouldn't.
    Germany pays the most to the EU because their economy is the biggest.
    Nope. For a landlocked country, Germany seems to have a modest amount of main battle tanks compared to smaller countries like Israel, Greece, etc.

    I told you how it could be paid for.
    German citizens are up in arms over debt relief for Greece. Why would German citizens be okay with more of the burden for a EU army?

    They used to - Now they see it as a drain of money and a security problem - The Era of asylum might come to an end.
    They don't see it that way as long as Merkel is leading the clown circus. This is why the Polish government, Greek Government, etc do not trust the "Western leadership" of Europe.

    Do you understand GDP? - Depending on how you count, the Eurozone is the world's largest economy - 3% of a unimaginably large pie is more than 8% of a much smaller pie.
    Yeah I understand GDP. USA spends a tiny portion of its GDP on military but still is more than a hundreds of countries combined. A EU army can't compete in spending with USA, China, Russia.

    So, in summary we have people from Western European countries telling me that NATO isn't doing anything for them, while people from Eastern European countries are begging for NATO to stay and to do more in their respective countries.

    If the US soldiers stationed in Germany were to unpack and leave the local economy in Germany would be devastated. But hey..at least the Yanks left lololol

  3. #723
    The Lightbringer dribbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    Lol. Come back to say that again once the UK loses the EU market and many big corporations leave the UK because of it. You've only just scratched the surface of your economic suffering.
    Looks like we will see on Tuesday. Bye bye single market - Hello Visas for Europeans to enter the UK.

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN11V0C7

    Oh and btw ,we are still going to veto your EU Army
    13/11/2022 Sir Keir Starmer. "Brexit is safe in my hands, Let me be really clear about Brexit. There is no case for going back into the EU and no case for going into the single market or customs union. Freedom of movement is over"

  4. #724
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Looks like we will see on Tuesday. Bye bye single market - Hello Visas for Europeans to enter the UK.
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN11V0C7
    Dude two things:

    a) If we need visa you will need visa to travel to Europe and
    b) Your link is bad news for you. If you need customs to sell into EU means your products will be less competitive.


    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Oh and btw ,we are still going to veto your EU Army
    No you wont :

    http://www.politico.eu/article/marti...sa-may-brexit/

  5. #725
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Nope. For a landlocked country, Germany seems to have a modest amount of main battle tanks compared to smaller countries like Israel, Greece, etc.
    /removed rest of gibberish
    Your entire post can be summed up here in one word and that mystery word is. Wrong!

  6. #726
    Quote Originally Posted by Kotutha View Post
    Your entire post can be summed up here in one word and that mystery word is. Wrong!
    Funny thing Greece up to couple of years ago had more Leo2 tanks than Germany and one of the biggest number in Europe. This guy...

  7. #727
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    Lol. Come back to say that again once the UK loses the EU market and many big corporations leave the UK because of it. You've only just scratched the surface of your economic suffering.
    Dribbles is the perfect interpretation of this whole Brexit thing. UK losing access to the EU market would send UK economy back decades.
    He doesn't know. Yet he talks. Weekend politics at its best!

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    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    Looks like we will see on Tuesday. Bye bye single market - Hello Visas for Europeans to enter the UK.

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-bri...-idUKKCN11V0C7

    Oh and btw ,we are still going to veto your EU Army
    I'm pretty sure the finance sector on which you built your economic success will be glad to see this happening.

  8. #728
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Funny thing Greece up to couple of years ago had more Leo2 tanks than Germany and one of the biggest number in Europe. This guy...
    Et tu, Ultima?
    Germany is not Landlocked.

  9. #729
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by tollshot View Post
    Mmmh let's see.... a small island, or the EU..... Mmmh.

    Banks and finance in general follow money.
    And between UK and EU... the money is in the EU. Larger economy. That's all there is.

  10. #730
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    Who would Airbus sell that 'strategic' airlift too? Unless the definitions have been expanded since i last checked, its either an Antonov (something) or a boeing globemaster.
    Somehow i think airbus would see no point in trying to fill those orders.

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    well the EU will get very pissed if notice is not handed in before may 2017, as that would mean that there would have to be uk MEP's elected (again).
    There is no point because the A400M was a disaster of a development and not a great seller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Funny thing Greece up to couple of years ago had more Leo2 tanks than Germany and one of the biggest number in Europe. This guy...
    All to threaten their ally to the east.... Or is it Macedonia they think they need to face off with?

  11. #731
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    All to threaten their ally to the east.... Or is it Macedonia they think they need to face off with?
    Must be, otherwise they would have buyed more ships instead.

  12. #732
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellhound View Post
    All to threaten their ally to the east.... Or is it Macedonia they think they need to face off with?
    I wouldn't call a country that doesn't respect your land, sea and air space, or pretty much has in lore that if Greece does pretty much anything in the Aegean then it is war as an ally. Even if both are in NATO

  13. #733
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    I wouldn't call a country that doesn't respect your land, sea and air space, or pretty much has in lore that if Greece does pretty much anything in the Aegean then it is war as an ally. Even if both are in NATO
    Dont bait, he is trying to troll like a 10 years old child.

    infracted - minor spam
    Last edited by Crissi; 2016-09-26 at 01:07 AM.

  14. #734
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    That's like breaking up with your partner, refusing to leave the house and then wanting a say in what's for dinner.

    Dear Britain,
    You left. Shut the fuck up.
    Dear Kangodo,
    Article 50 has not yet been implemented.

    Sincerely,
    A Brit.

  15. #735
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by dribbles View Post
    No only the EU clings to the misplaced belief that the UK wants access to the single market, it really is not fussed. Above anything else the UK will have control of its borders, no deal is better than a bad deal. I see Salty Martin took his last opportunity to travel visa free to the UK at the weekend, must be tough him knowing as a tourist 17 million people just voted that you are a tosser.
    You do know he is the speaker of the EU parliament? - (he has a diplomatic passport...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Most Americans would be happy to see the EU army formed..it means the excuses for why Europe can't spend money on their own armies would stop.
    Excuse? - The EU does not want to pay for it, and the Americans don't want them to pay for it.
    They are not going to agree to build one carrier, because these two countries have different mission goals. The UK wants nothing to do with continental Europe other than NATO endeavors.
    I'm not proposing they share the carriers, i'm suggesting they pick one model and build only that model - The UK and French carriers do not have some different mission profile, its Atlantic ocean and Mediterranean deployments for the both of them, maybe some Gulf deployments too, but that's for the both of them.
    Nope. For a landlocked country, Germany seems to have a modest amount of main battle tanks compared to smaller countries like Israel, Greece, etc.
    Germany is not landlocked.
    World total 1,676.0 2.3
    1 United States United States 597.0 3.3
    2 China China[a] 215.0 1.9
    3 Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia[b] 87.2 13.7
    4 Russia Russia[a] 66.4 5.4
    5 United Kingdom United Kingdom 55.5 2.0
    6 India India 53.3 2.3
    7 France France 50.9 2.1
    8 Japan Japan 40.9 1.0
    9 Germany Germany[a] 39.4 1.2
    10 South Korea South Korea 36.4 2.6
    11 Brazil Brazil 24.6 1.4
    12 Italy Italy 23.8 1.3
    13 Australia Australia 23.6 1.9
    14 United Arab Emirates United Arab Emirates[a] 22.8 5.7
    15 Israel Israel 16.1 5.
    40 billion is more than 16 billion.
    German citizens are up in arms over debt relief for Greece. Why would German citizens be okay with more of the burden for a EU army?
    Germany's problem is not picking up the tab, its what the tab is for.
    If Greece had suffered some sort of natural catastrophe the EU would have handed them the credit card no questions asked.
    Oh, And again, Germany pays more because it has the biggest economy.

    They don't see it that way as long as Merkel is leading the clown circus. This is why the Polish government, Greek Government, etc do not trust the "Western leadership" of Europe.
    Yes, but Merkel is changing her mind.
    Our Swedish government has been trying to get a joint EU system for refugees, and now they dont like it because its likely to not be any sort of minimum rules system, but instead a one rule system - That wont be generous.

    Yeah I understand GDP. USA spends a tiny portion of its GDP on military but still is more than a hundreds of countries combined. A EU army can't compete in spending with USA, China, Russia.
    What? I mean the rest is stupid too but that is really fucking stupid, France, Germany, Italy, and the UK spend nearly three times as much money as Russia.
    Oh and the US spends 3.3% of its GDP So if the EU, (that is either the largest or the second largest depending on how you count) also spends 3% of its GDP We get what amount of money ? - A comparable amount?

    If the US soldiers stationed in Germany were to unpack and leave the local economy in Germany would be devastated. But hey..at least the Yanks left lololol
    Are you for real?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
    Dear Kangodo,
    Article 50 has not yet been implemented.

    Sincerely,
    A Brit.
    Indeed, the better comparison is saying you want a divorce and then vetoing your spouse's future plans of remodeling the basement of what is soon to be his house.

  16. #736
    Warchief Teleros's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Ulmita;42482906]From my perspective an EU army is the way forward. Sure there will be issues at the start, sure we will need to work hard to make this happen but it is very possible to make one.

    You see EU has experience from NATO and we can continue on the same line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Speaking of NATO i personally believe that the alliance has served its purpose and it needs to be replaced by something more meaningful.
    Agreed. If Trump did dissolve NATO (I don't think he will though), I think it'd be a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Lastly, i don't believe Putin is about to attack anyone any time soon. If he does something it would be to propose some kind of cooperation with Europe and / or alliance.
    He may want some Baltic land, which would be an issue re NATO etc. The key issue though is that in terms of threat, you have to deal with capabilities, not intents etc. Russia can invade the EU, therefore a wise man plans for them to, all the while earnestly hoping they never do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Russia always wanted to be allies with Europe. Americans and British it was what was always standing in the middle.
    Certainly the USA. I think the UK too often gets dragged along by them when it's not necessarily in our interests.

    = + =

    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    Well... Boris Johnson has said article 50 may be invoked early 2017 but no one has decided to back his claims.
    David Davis has said it too actually. That's 2 of the top foreign policy / Brexit people saying as much, and they're in the Cabinet, so... it's likely I think.

    = + =

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    It certainly is.
    Stating something doesn't make it true .

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    You seem to have no understanding of how much redundancy the EU has in procurement alone.
    If by that you mean that all these countries have their own defence establishments & industries, then yes they have tons of redundancy.

    My point is the actual money involved. Since WW2, most Western European countries have funnelled money into their welfare states instead of defence, and have relied on the US umbrella (with its comparatively small welfare state) to protect them. As Europe's populations age, the tax base will become ever more squeezed, even as the demand for more money going into welfare will increase. Many countries will want to preserve their own defence establishments (France and much of Central / Eastern Europe I suspect), so in this case the government will have to split the money between the EU Army and their own.

    Few EU countries spend even 2% of GDP on defence... compare the USA's roughly $600bn budget with the EU nations' roughly $200bn (including the UK, which accounts for ~25% of this).

    Can the EU equal/exceed US spending? Of course it can - and probably easily. Will it? Frankly I doubt it, due to political / economic considerations.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    You know the EU battle groups already exist?
    Yup. But as I said, are they strong and cohesive units? I can't recall off hand whether they've engaged in any serious fighting at all TBH.

    Consider these scenarios (country names in 1-3 pulled out of a hat):

    1. Poles or Frenchmen fighting under a German general. No history there, right :P ?
    2. Language barriers.
    3. Spanish troops being sent to defend Latvia from Russia when they can't give a toss - or their government has even sided with Russia.
    4. German troops being ordered to attack anyone, because OMG REMEMBER THE WAR!!!!111!*

    A single, unified country like the USA, or France, or whatever... generally doesn't have these issues. International coalitions are rather different however.

    *Seriously, German governments (and the people? I don't know TBH) need to get over WW2 already...

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    except of course the Eastern Eu are the ones paranoid about Russia and the west that cares less.
    Hence meaningful overtures of peace.

    I'm not saying it would work, but the point is that the Eastern European countries can defend against Russia without needing to subordinate their defence establishments etc at the EU level. This gives Putin an opening he could exploit.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    Frexit is not something the french want.
    Le Pen wants Frexit though, and the National Front under her are doing well. Suppose she wins the next election (or the one after, w/e)... she could either claim that as a mandate to activate Article 50 and withdraw from the EU, or (and bearing in mind as the President of France she could throw the power of the state behind her, unlike in the Brexit referendum) have her own referendum if she thinks she could realistically win it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoblinP View Post
    This is an argument for the Eu army.
    No, it's an argument for the EU nations doing more to defend themselves. That does not automatically mean an EU Army is the optimal choice (though of course, it does not mean the converse - it merely means that something ought to be done).

    I mean, WW2 didn't see the USA & British Empire subordinate their armies into a general United Nations army, did it? No - they worked as allies, appointed a supreme commander in Europe etc, but remained quite separate as institutions etc.

  17. #737
    Banned Kellhound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Dont bait, he is trying to troll like a 10 years old child.
    No troll, just pointing out that Greece has little projection ability and is surrounded by allies or neutrals, thus a large land force makes no sense.

  18. #738
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Teleros View Post
    David Davis has said it too actually. That's 2 of the top foreign policy / Brexit people saying as much, and they're in the Cabinet, so... it's likely I think.
    Davis davis also thinks the UK is going to join the WTO (which would require leaving the EU customs union, a new development).
    So he either does not know what he is talking about, or he does not know what he is talking about.

    Stating something doesn't make it true .
    How would you solve EU security problems then?

    If by that you mean that all these countries have their own defence establishments & industries, then yes they have tons of redundancy.
    yes.

    Can the EU equal/exceed US spending? Of course it can - and probably easily. Will it? Frankly I doubt it, due to political / economic considerations.
    The EU army would save money is my point.
    Hence meaningful overtures of peace.
    Note sure those exist.
    I'm not saying it would work, but the point is that the Eastern European countries can defend against Russia without needing to subordinate their defence establishments etc at the EU level. This gives Putin an opening he could exploit.
    No they cant.

    Le Pen wants Frexit though, and the National Front under her are doing well. Suppose she wins the next election (or the one after, w/e)... she could either claim that as a mandate to activate Article 50 and withdraw from the EU, or (and bearing in mind as the President of France she could throw the power of the state behind her, unlike in the Brexit referendum) have her own referendum if she thinks she could realistically win it.
    A, i doubt she will win, B, only the UK have the paranoid insane delusions of grandeur required to have a brexit.

    No, it's an argument for the EU nations doing more to defend themselves.
    The only realistic way to do this is an EU army.

  19. #739
    [QUOTE=Teleros;42498360]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post

    1. Poles or Frenchmen fighting under a German general. No history there, right :P ?
    4. German troops being ordered to attack anyone, because OMG REMEMBER THE WAR!!!!111!*
    *Seriously, German governments (and the people? I don't know TBH) need to get over WW2 already...
    It's weird to on one hand say that WW2 influences will hinder procedures and then say that people should get over it already.

  20. #740
    I think you want to put Teleros in that quote and not me

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