His rebirth will be the story of your redemption.

[Life-Binder]

Illidan-kun is my Jesus

[Deleted]

Narru have both Light and Void forms.


What if the Narru are also infact the Void Lords

Naaru are naturally supposed to be beings of the Light, the fact that she go into Void is supposed to be something super rare.

[Darkrulerxxx]

how do you proceed forward after the black rook hold scenario??

finished my class hall campaign....artifact knowledge at 4....and i'm not getting anything else from Light's Heart??

[Frontenac]

Some things to consider:

1. Xe'ra does not believe we are bad people. She knows our valour, or she would not have chosen us to search for Illidan in the first place.
2. Acts have a moral value independently from the circumstances in which they were commited. Killing is always an evil. The guilt associated with such an evil can be diminished because of the circumstances. Legitimate defense is an exemple. The person who kills someone to defend its own life is not guilty of murder, but it still has commited an homicide. In catholic terms, he may not have commited a mortal sin (which brakes the bond with God and incurs the damnation of Hell), but he still has commited a venial sin (which wounds the relation to God and does not damn the sinner, but will still needs reparation). That reparation of the wound is necessary not only between God and the sinner, but also between the sinner and its victims and even between the sinner and himself.
3. Killing can be seen as an act of hate. It is in fact the ultimate act of hatred. Wanting the destruction of someone is certainly not an act of love.
4. The Naaru were also leading the charge against Illidan and the Black Temple. So they also had something against Illidan.

Xe'ra believes that Illidan is necessary to stop the Legion. His initial intentions have been good (he wants to save Azeroth), though the means he has chosen were not (see point 4). Just as we sometimes did questionnable things to achieve our goals (see point 1). The problem is that we killed Illidan. He may not want to help us. Our relation with him must be repaired (point 2). How can we "redeem" ourselves with Illidan? Well, searching for his soul may be a good start. Then we'll have a powerful ally against the Legion and save Azeroth, which is also, in a certain point of view, our redemption.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

x'era is a voidlord?

[Deleted]

1. Xe'ra does not believe we are bad people. She knows our valour, or she would not have chosen us to search for Illidan in the first place.

No, she simply believes we aren't irredeemable. Which is entirely different. Fuck that and fuck her. She's full of shit.

3. Killing can be seen as an act of hate. It is in fact the ultimate act of hatred. Wanting the destruction of someone is certainly not an act of love.

It can also be an act of pragmatism, an act of self defense and in fact an act of love for example a mercy killing someone begs for to end their pain and suffering. She's still full of shit. Because she ignores everything that doesn't fit her narrative, i.e him working with the Burning Legion during Warcraft 3 TFT.

Do we need redemption for offing the Lich King? We did that too! Do we need to be redeemed for killing Death Wing, because we helped kill him aswell. What about our fight against the Burning Legion? We're killing loads of demons and other people working for the Legion. The Naaru and others plan the destruction of both the Legion and the Void Lords and we're helping do we need to apologize and rethink our ways, turn into pacifists?

It's an incoherent mess and terrible writing. Stop trying to defend it.

4. The Naaru were also leading the charge against Illidan and the Black Temple. So they also had something against Illidan.

Which is conveniently ignored, amongst other things. No we are the evil beings who wronged poor Illidan and were bad. We need to prostrate and reedem ourselves before our lord and saviour Illidan and Mother Xe'ra. Screw that.

The problem is that we killed Illidan.

Killing Illidan was something the Naru themselves wanted. Because he had gone off the short end. He was borderline insane. He had a giant harem of brainwashed human and elven women, it's implied rather nasty things were done to Maiev during her captivity, he had in most ways become as bad as the Legion. Killing him wasn't wrong in BC, it was the reasonable response to his aggression and what he was doing.

He may not want to help us. Our relation with him must be repaired (point 2).

That's his problem, not mine. I'm not going to prostrate myself before the equivalent of a moody 16 year old in WoW, because he was going batshit insane. Yes some people have wronged him in the past. We weren't amongst them. If anything he'd be in need of proving himself to us. That he isn't the insane type we've seen in BC, that he isn't a complete deplorable monster at this point, that there's a reason to even want his aid beyond "you need it!".

How can we "redeem" ourselves with Illidan? Well, searching for his soul may be a good start. Then we'll have a powerful ally against the Legion and save Azeroth, which is also, in a certain point of view, our redemption.

Here's the thing. I inherently reject the idea that I need to redeem myself. I do not. You set up your entire argumentation in a way that pigeonholes people into "you evil, you hateful, you need to apologize" but ignore the wider picture. You ignore various burning questions. You ignore the acts commited by Illidan himself and others to make this work.

[Deleted]

I do agree that messiah part is bad but I like the part where we fucked up.

what if there are many messiahs and illidan is one of them?

[Deleted]

I'm not hostile. You must be outside your safe space carebear.

Yes, you are very hostile. A complete tosser too.

[Deleted]

Here's the thing. I inherently reject the idea that I need to redeem myself. I do not. You set up your entire argumentation in a way that pigeonholes people into "you evil, you hateful, you need to apologize" but ignore the wider picture. You ignore various burning questions. You ignore the acts commited by Illidan himself and others to make this work.

yeah that's not what he was saying, you don't need to redeem yourself for killing Illidan that was justified, you need to redeem yourself in Illidan's eyes because he will be angry for stoping him since he was ready to defeat the Legion but if you help him he will forgive you. You don't need to acknowledge him forgiveness or accept that you needed any since at the time you thought you were doing the right thing
As for Xe'ra I believe she is angry because you allowed yourself to be manipulated into killing Illidan because seriously this whole thing reeks Kil'jaeden

[Taeldorian]

How the fuck did you finish Illidan questline?!

I did the 2nd chapter(the one in Black Rook Hold) like weeks ago and haven't got any new quest ever since!

Need AK 5 apparently. Thats what some people on WoWhead said.

- - - Updated - - -

how do you proceed forward after the black rook hold scenario??

finished my class hall campaign....artifact knowledge at 4....and i'm not getting anything else from Light's Heart??

Need to be AK 5.

[Frontenac]

No, she simply believes we aren't irredeemable. Which is entirely different. Fuck that and fuck her. She's full of shit.

And why does she believe we are not irredeemable, hmm?

It can also be an act of pragmatism, an act of self defense and in fact an act of love for example a mercy killing someone begs for to end their pain and suffering. She's still full of shit. Because she ignores everything that doesn't fit her narrative, i.e him working with the Burning Legion during Warcraft 3 TFT.

He was working with the Burning Legion to destroy the Scourge, which was a greater threat for Azeroth than the Burning Legion after the Third War. He never worked with them to help them invade Azeroth. Which goes with what I was saying: good end, bad means.

Do we need redemption for offing the Lich King? We did that too! Do we need to be redeemed for killing Death Wing, because we helped kill him aswell. What about our fight against the Burning Legion? We're killing loads of demons and other people working for the Legion. The Naaru and others plan the destruction of both the Legion and the Void Lords and we're helping do we need to apologize and rethink our ways, turn into pacifists?

In a way, we do need redemption. If the Light and the Naaru are the forces of Good (and they must, or else what would they represent?) in the Warcraft universe, then all this cycle of hatred and killing must be abhorrent. You may get dirty for achieving a necessary task, you still need to clean yourself afterwards. The thing is, we have justified grudge against Illidan, and he has justified grudge against us. that must be repaired.

It's an incoherent mess and terrible writing. Stop trying to defend it.

Well, duh, that is Warcraft, what did you expect? Each and every game has been changing and retconning elements of the games before, making it an even greater mess. I'm just playing the devil's advocate and try to make some sense out of it for this expansion, while being fully aware that some parts of it will make no sense with the following games. Besides, "terrible writing" is the usual and easy accusation made by the fans for everything that does not please them, even before the story is completed. This accusation is used in the Warcraft forum, as well as the threads about Star Wars, Game of Thrones, Star Trek, etc.

Which is conveniently ignored, amongst other things. No we are the evil beings who wronged poor Illidan and were bad. We need to prostrate and reedem ourselves before our lord and saviour Illidan and Mother Xe'ra. Screw that.

Xe'ra's goal was to teach something about us, not Illidan.

Killing Illidan was something the Naru themselves wanted. Because he had gone off the short end. He was borderline insane. He had a giant harem of brainwashed human and elven women, it's implied rather nasty things were done to Maiev during her captivity, he had in most ways become as bad as the Legion. Killing him wasn't wrong in BC, it was the reasonable response to his aggression and what he was doing.

You cannot comment on that sentence while ignoring the following one : he may not want to help us. The "problem" in that sentance was not about the morality of our act, but about its consequence with Illidan.

That's his problem, not mine. I'm not going to prostrate myself before the equivalent of a moody 16 year old in WoW, because he was going batshit insane. Yes some people have wronged him in the past. We weren't amongst them. If anything he'd be in need of proving himself to us. That he isn't the insane type we've seen in BC, that he isn't a complete deplorable monster at this point, that there's a reason to even want his aid beyond "you need it!".

That whole quest line is precisely to show us why we would need is help, and that he is not exactly what we percieved about him. And I don't think we will have to prostrate ourselves before him either. We'll see.

Here's the thing. I inherently reject the idea that I need to redeem myself. I do not. You set up your entire argumentation in a way that pigeonholes people into "you evil, you hateful, you need to apologize" but ignore the wider picture. You ignore various burning questions. You ignore the acts commited by Illidan himself and others to make this work.

I believe on the contrary that I'm looking at the wider picture. I do not believe our characters are evil. Most people in the world are decent people, yet we all do things that are reprehensible. And I do not ignore the evil acts committed by Illidan. He also needs to atone for his sins, and if they do not show that to us in the upcoming content, then yes I will be angry at the writers. It's just too early to reach that conclusion.

- - - Updated - - -

yeah that's not what he was saying, you don't need to redeem yourself for killing Illidan that was justified, you need to redeem yourself in Illidan's eyes because he will be angry for stoping him since he was ready to defeat the Legion but if you help him he will forgive you. You don't need to acknowledge him forgiveness or accept that you needed any since at the time you thought you were doing the right thing
As for Xe'ra I believe she is angry because you allowed yourself to be manipulated into killing Illidan because seriously this whole thing reeks Kil'jaeden

That's more or less what I was saying, yes.

And if there is one who can hold a grudge, it's Kil'jaeden...

[Deleted]

what if there are many messiahs and illidan is one of them?

The whole concept of a messiah is not really good to begin with. Believing into some magical Messiah means believing into making for someone who magically makes everything all right, instead of changing things oneself.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yeah I'm still not gonna tolerate Xe'ra's negative tone about killing Illidan. I didn't kill him during BC but let's say that I did or even our characters did. Given what we knew from a players perspective.

Illidan was using a Pitlord to enslave Orcs on felblood(Chaos/Fel Orcs) and such.

Had a lot of enslaved Broken. SLAVERY(That is a BIG NO NO)

Whatever happened in Zangarmarsh is kinda not specific but not necessarily good for the planet.

Netherstorm..well Kael'thas was in league with The Deceiver soooo Illidan gets a pass.

I want to listen to the Naaru but got damn it evidence shows me otherwise.

Naaru are naturally supposed to be beings of the Light, the fact that she go into Void is supposed to be something super rare.

The only one we've learned about is Muru and out of all the Naaru that's out there. It's not a stretch for Xe'ra to possibly be that or eventually turn to that.

[Cyclone Duke]

If blizzard is going with "illidan is the only way the universe can be saved" - then us killing illidan makes us the cause of the doom of the universe. Regardless of him being evil and a necessary kill - us killing illidan fucked the universe.

I don't think the naaru is trying to say you were evil, or you did the wrong thing - but you fucked the universe all the same, and his rebirth is your chance to un-fuck the universe (which is a redemption of your fuckupery)

[Rafoel]

I am Death Knight and I didn't even exist when Illidan was killed.

Xe'ra plz

[Deleted]

In a way, we do need redemption. If the Light and the Naaru are the forces of Good (and they must, or else what would they represent?) in the Warcraft universe, then all this cycle of hatred and killing must be abhorrent. You may get dirty for achieving a necessary task, you still need to clean yourself afterwards. The thing is, we have justified grudge against Illidan, and he has justified grudge against us. that must be repaired.

Accordingly to whom?

That's why I use the Babylon 5 example all the time. "Light" and "Shadow" aren't "Good" and "Evil" or "Right" and "Wrong". They are two cosmic entities that fight for the control of existence.

The Scarlet Crusade is morally evil but they are righteousness enough to use Light. There were Twilight Hammer Vindicators. Even Xe'ra paints Illidan's massacre of his Moon Guard mages as a "good" thing.

We need to accept that the mortals, if they want really to decide anything in the Warcraft universe, have to kick out all these beings (including the Naaru) that consider us ants and use us as canon fodder.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Accordingly to whom?

That's why I use the Babylon 5 example all the time. "Light" and "Shadow" aren't "Good" and "Evil" or "Right" and "Wrong". They are two cosmic entities that fight for the control of existence.

The Scarlet Crusade is morally evil but they are righteousness enough to use Light. There were Twilight Hammer Vindicators. Even Xe'ra paints Illidan's massacre of his Moon Guard mages as a "good" thing.

We need to accept that the mortals, if they want really to decide anything in the Warcraft universe, have to kick out all these beings (including the Naaru) that consider us ants and use us as canon fodder.

I dunno, the metaphors in this game suggest otherwise.

[Darkrulerxxx]

sorry don't mean to hijack the thread but i seem to not be able to access the last scenario...is it live yet? time gated? artifact gated??

[Deleted]

I dunno, the metaphors in this game suggest otherwise.

Which again, it's also contradicted by the game itself, when we have a group like the Scarlet Crusade.

[Frontenac]

Accordingly to whom?

That's why I use the Babylon 5 example all the time. "Light" and "Shadow" aren't "Good" and "Evil" or "Right" and "Wrong". They are two cosmic entities that fight for the control of existence.

Light and Shadow do not mean anything. They need to stand for something. You have Life opposed to Death, Order to Chaos. These are clear concepts. What does Light stand for? And Shadow?