Next week's balance changes

[Jondar]

If the very very best your class / spec can perform is 70% of the very very best of another class / spec, then yes, you would have to play ALOT better than those specs to get equal numbers. I don't see how you can deny that.

Edit: I mean, if the very best of one spec was 10% of another spec, would you still be saying the same thing? I doubt it, and then my question is, at which point can you ignore this fact? 95% would be fine by me, 90% is not good, but 70% is just plain unacceptable in my opinion.

And no, logs can't tell us absolutely everything and show every single thing that is wrong, but they are still good indicators. And it is simply a fact from the current logs that all warlock specs are currently pretty far below some other specs.

That is also why we got some substantial buffs across the board, so really, you denying this point is just... Odd. Will the buffs be enough? Maybe, but I won't complain about buffs even if they are not enough. Will they fix all the design issues with warlocks at the moment? Nope, but hopefully 7.1 will. When I say design issues, I'm talking about survivability outside aff (Drain Life is massive, but a DPS loss for demo and destro), often not having an interrupt available due to talent choices / DPS loss, Soul Harvest as a talent, Demonology requiring absurd amounts of haste and still being very punishing after that, Affliction artifact traits, and so on. The list of objectively sound warlock design issues is long.

I'm going to clear a couple of things up for you because you seem to be confused.

What I am in favor of:

1. Warlocks having more fluid mechanics across all three specs. Destro shard generation, Demonology (well, Demo is alright because it's meant to be the ST glass cannon spec), and Affliction traits/talents/soul effigy/opening damage/everything.
2. Tuning.
3. More survivability if we have less mobility.

I have never once denied that those things should be granted to Warlocks. BUT

What I am not in favor of:

1. Misuse of Warcraft Logs to prove the "point" that Warlocks aren't viable or whateverthefuck people are using as an excuse as to why they aren't putting up raid-ready numbers.
2. Players who do not understand how to use their Warlock properly in Emerald Nightmare telling those who do and are that they're "in denial" or "in shitty groups" or whateverthefuck because they cite Warcraft Logs
3. People who do not know how to read, comprehend, or understand the relevance of damage meters citing them to prove what is wrong with Warlocks.
4. People comparing their numbers to top 200 players' numbers and acting as if that is a relevant comparison in any way, shape, or form.
5. Anyone saying Warlocks are not viable because we can't cheese our way to the top, or because we aren't the top spec. It's okay to be middle of the pack. We don't have to be on top in the very first week of the very first raid without any raid gear being distributed.
6. ANYONE insulting someone's raid group if the Warlock performs well.

I hope that clears things up for you. The majority of the issue people really have right now are very much L2P issues. If you don't think you can play a Warlock and contribute to a raid group - which many people here are implying - that is a L2P issue. If you can't put up relevant numbers, no amount of buffs will allow you to because it is a L2P issue.

[Irian]

From doing Mythic+ with actual serious groups and participating in raids...this isn't enough or even close to enough to see us played in any kind of serious Mythic+ groups, and it's not enough to make us up there with shadow priests and fire mages in raids, but it's definitely helpful. In particular the RoF change made me just go "oh thank fucking god" because that ability is currently an atrocious dumpster fire of an AoE.

There are still a lot of fundamental issues with the class that are keeping warlocks from ever actually being good unless we were so absurdly overbuffed that we reached into broken levels, but at least this is a step in the right direction. A few things I'd like to see is some passive cleave for destro (fire and brimstone baseline, or a bit of splash damage on conflagrate blizzard ffs why do fire mages just breathe cleave and still do better ST than us and have comparatively good defensives), and a revamp of talents to not force us to choose between AoE and ST but rather options like superior cleave or superior ST, and for affliction and demonology the options to have a bit more on-demand damage in exchange for single target and/or cleave.

A good example of what I mean: Haunt replacing UA and dealing slightly more damage immediately, and providing a shard if the target dies within 6 secs (the debuff also serving as a method to keep other effects that work off of UA fluid). A talent to replace Doom with our old Wild Imps spell, with a roughly ~15 second cooldown to summon imps that deal splash damage felbursts on our target. A talent that causes our Hand of Gul'dan to also summon a Fel Elemental that begins to release fire waves from its impact point. These are just a few offhanded examples of small flavor stuff that could make these specs a lot more interesting and not utterly worthless for a dungeon group, and to show how bland and uninteresting our current talent options are compared to other classes.

[Gravityx]

From doing Mythic+ with actual serious groups and participating in raids...this isn't enough or even close to enough to see us played in any kind of serious Mythic+ groups, and it's not enough to make us up there with shadow priests and fire mages in raids, but it's definitely helpful. In particular the RoF change made me just go "oh thank fucking god" because that ability is currently an atrocious dumpster fire of an AoE.

Get better. Destro has some of the best cleave in the game...do you know how many groups of 2-4mobs there are in most dungeons? AoE isnt bad at all either if you know what you're doing. And the amount of adds to SB on some bosses....As for raids, yeah locks struggled a bit on ST fights, but these buffs along with other class nerfs, makes it feel like it will be more balanced. But having said that, there are no ST fights in Mythic, and destro is quite amazing on every fight because of Wreck Havoc.

[Jondar]

As Destro, or even Affliction, if you aren't able to sustain 300-400k on packs of 2-4 mobs it is absolutely a L2P issue. Don't take that as an insult, just do some research or ask for help instead of blaming a lack of buffs.

[Cainium]

As Destro, or even Affliction, if you aren't able to sustain 300-400k on packs of 2-4 mobs it is absolutely a L2P issue. Don't take that as an insult, just do some research or ask for help instead of blaming a lack of buffs.

I would really like to see how you pull 400k on 4 mobs as aff. No insult, i would "really" like to see it... 'cause i doubt it's possible.

[Irian]

Get better. Destro has some of the best cleave in the game...do you know how many groups of 2-4mobs there are in most dungeons? AoE isnt bad at all either if you know what you're doing. And the amount of adds to SB on some bosses....As for raids, yeah locks struggled a bit on ST fights, but these buffs along with other class nerfs, makes it feel like it will be more balanced. But having said that, there are no ST fights in Mythic, and destro is quite amazing on every fight because of Wreck Havoc.

You've clearly not done the serious mythic dungeon runs. As you said to me without basic understanding, "get better".

The runs I'm doing have been, as affixes allow, huge AoE pulls and aggressive burns. There is no way for a destruction warlock to compete in an environment like that. For 3 chest runs (which seem to be the accepted norm now for the best method of farming gear) warlocks are utter trash. Our AoE is absolutely not good and even with sacrificing all our ST (which is what my point was directed towards) for our AoE talents warlocks are still not anywhere near a good fire mage.

Your group's mediocrity doesn't mean the class is okay. Other people playing their classes correctly destroy warlocks. We have a single niche (distant-target cleave) where we excel over other classes. That does not make the current class design good.

[Jondar]

As Destro, or even Affliction, if you aren't able to sustain 300-400k on packs of 2-4 mobs it is absolutely a L2P issue. Don't take that as an insult, just do some research or ask for help instead of blaming a lack of buffs.

Hmm? Affliction is considered better than Destro for Mythic+ IIRC. Seed + GoSac + Phantom + Artifact are all great for dungeon packs. I don't play it myself, because I do fine as Destro, but I thought Affliction's capabiltiies in Mythic+ were pretty common knowledge

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You've clearly not done the serious mythic dungeon runs. As you said to me without basic understanding, "get better".

The runs I'm doing have been, as affixes allow, huge AoE pulls and aggressive burns. There is no way for a destruction warlock to compete in an environment like that. For 3 chest runs (which seem to be the accepted norm now for the best method of farming gear) warlocks are utter trash. Our AoE is absolutely not good and even with sacrificing all our ST (which is what my point was directed towards) for our AoE talents warlocks are still not anywhere near a good fire mage.

Your group's mediocrity doesn't mean the class is okay. Other people playing their classes correctly destroy warlocks. We have a single niche (distant-target cleave) where we excel over other classes. That does not make the current class design good.

The hell are you talking about? Destruction has great sustained AoE in Mythics and our ST is fine for those bosses. You're probably using the wrong talents or not using your skills properly on pulls. No, we aren't as good as Fire Mages.. but so what? Most classes aren't. We don't have to be as good as fire mages to be successful.

lol @ "serious" mythic dungeon runs but not knowing how to AoE

[Reaper11b]

Hmm? Affliction is considered better than Destro for Mythic+ IIRC. Seed + GoSac + Phantom + Artifact are all great for dungeon packs. I don't play it myself, because I do fine as Destro, but I thought Affliction's capabiltiies in Mythic+ were pretty common knowledge

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The hell are you talking about? Destruction has great sustained AoE in Mythics and our ST is fine for those bosses. You're probably using the wrong talents or not using your skills properly on pulls. No, we aren't as good as Fire Mages.. but so what? Most classes aren't. We don't have to be as good as fire mages to be successful.

lol @ "serious" mythic dungeon runs but not knowing how to AoE

Funny, I'm pretty sure the guides on each spec go over how to maximize AoE and burst AoE in thorough detail.

Am I missing something?

[Jondar]

Funny, I'm pretty sure the guides on each spec go over how to maximize AoE and burst AoE in thorough detail.

Am I missing something?

Maybe. What talents do you run when you're doing Mythic+ dungeons, and what's your rotation like?

[Reaper11b]

Maybe. What talents do you run when you're doing Mythic+ dungeons, and what's your rotation like?

I suppose I need to do a better job conveying sarcasm. I was trying to point out that with how thorough the guides are, it should be easy to know what talents to take for any situation, ST, AoE/burst AoE in response to the other post about how bad our AoE is in mythic 5mans.

[Jondar]

I suppose I need to do a better job conveying sarcasm. I was trying to point out that with how thorough the guides are, it should be easy to know what talents to take for any situation, ST, AoE/burst AoE in response to the other post about how bad our AoE is in mythic 5mans.

I've been painting furniture for the last hour so chances are I'm a little buzzed - probably my fault.

[Reaper11b]

I've been painting furniture for the last hour so chances are I'm a little buzzed - probably my fault.

You're Gnomedeezy, it's never your fault.

[Skylarking]

Why is blizzard ignoring the real issue here? Warlocks have damage - they really do. Only problem is they have alot of problems getting to that damage. They have so much ramp up time, so much preparation and thought to get it up and running. All while being clunky. But they decide to just give more damage hoping the problem goes away. smh fo real at this company.

[Deleted]

Why is blizzard ignoring the real issue here? Warlocks have damage - they really do. Only problem is they have alot of problems getting to that damage. They have so much ramp up time, so much preparation and thought to get it up and running. All while being clunky. But they decide to just give more damage hoping the problem goes away. smh fo real at this company.

That may be due in a bigger patch.

I am fine with them releasing number fixes first if they can't overhaul a class in time. I'd rather have a bit more damage and wait for the real change instead of nothing at all.

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Demonology the go to spec for Ursoc and Nythendra?

[TummyBoy]

Is anyone else concerned about Affliction in mythic+ now? I'm primarily a mythic+ player, and to me it feels as if our trash clearing is going to be simply too good. They buffed one of the aspects of Aff that we were already very strong with, and the spec subsequently shot up to a point where it's competitive with Destruction in pure ST, if initial reports are to be believed. Since we scale so well with the number of mobs present (SoC/GoSac/Phantom Singularity if you really want) it's going to be a terrifyingly powerful spec in mythic+. It was already very good, but for progression I think it's a top pick now.

With the new balance changes I could see the three DPS going something like Outlaw Rogue / Affliction Warlock / Fire Mage. This would make sense, as Aff should be good at something, but I think we're looking at pre-nerf Havoc levels of DPS in AoE situations.

[Irian]

The hell are you talking about? Destruction has great sustained AoE in Mythics and our ST is fine for those bosses. You're probably using the wrong talents or not using your skills properly on pulls. No, we aren't as good as Fire Mages.. but so what? Most classes aren't. We don't have to be as good as fire mages to be successful.

lol @ "serious" mythic dungeon runs but not knowing how to AoE

Jesus christ, can you people actually read what I said instead of attempting to turn every conversation into a dick-comparing competition. Having an actual discussion on MMO-C is impossible because of how knee-jerk some of you guys are to open the gates with insults.

A big issue I have with the class design, as I addressed in my first post, is that in order to have "pretty good" AoE we have to sacrifice our ST DPS entirely. Yeah our AoE is pretty respectable when we take grimoire of sacrifice, FnB and/or Cataclysm, or if we take all of them it's pretty damn good, but tell me what other class has to throw away their single target DPS to even have a decent AoE spell.

If you take any of those except Grimoire of Sacrifice, prepare to watch your ST drop hard. You have no method of doing both whereas hunters and mages both do so effortlessly. Do you think that's good balance? That's exactly what I mean when I say that we would have to be buffed to the state of being OP in order to be anywhere close to our competitors who are oddly enough not receiving nerfs, which gives the implication that that is where ranged DPS should be.

[Jondar]

Jesus christ, can you people actually read what I said instead of attempting to turn every conversation into a dick-comparing competition. Having an actual discussion on MMO-C is impossible because of how knee-jerk some of you guys are to open the gates with insults.

A big issue I have with the class design, as I addressed in my first post, is that in order to have "pretty good" AoE we have to sacrifice our ST DPS entirely. Yeah our AoE is pretty respectable when we take grimoire of sacrifice, FnB and/or Cataclysm, or if we take all of them it's pretty damn good, but tell me what other class has to throw away their single target DPS to even have a decent AoE spell.

If you take any of those except Grimoire of Sacrifice, prepare to watch your ST drop hard. You have no method of doing both whereas hunters and mages both do so effortlessly. Do you think that's good balance? That's exactly what I mean when I say that we would have to be buffed to the state of being OP in order to be anywhere close to our competitors who are oddly enough not receiving nerfs, which gives the implication that that is where ranged DPS should be.

Backdraft, Reverse Entropy, FnB, GSac, Havoc. Single target is fine. Easy 225-250k ST, 300k+ with lust/Lord of the Flames. It does not drop hard and this build is plenty capable of being involved in 3 chest groups. Most versatile dungeon talents you can run.

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and just a heads up, don't say disrespectful stupid shit like

Your group's mediocrity doesn't mean the class is okay. Other people playing their classes correctly destroy warlocks. We have a single niche (distant-target cleave) where we excel over other classes. That does not make the current class design good.

if you don't want to turn something into a "dick comparing competition, don't insult peoples groups acting like the only way you can do well is if everyone else sucks, especially if you don't know how to play your own class properly.

[Jacpierre]

Agony makes up about 25% of most parses, so the 5% there is a lot bigger deal than 10% to drain life or life siphon. the UA buff is nice though. This still ignores that Affliction was the worst of the 3 specs and got the least buffs, and it's still worse off that a lot of other specs that also got buffs, like fucking OP as fuck ret paladins now. Ret should do massive damage.

[Deleted]

1. Misuse of Warcraft Logs to prove the "point" that Warlocks aren't viable or whateverthefuck people are using as an excuse as to why they aren't putting up raid-ready numbers.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by misusing warcraft logs for this?

It seems as good a means as any to get a look at what classes are capable of, it's certainly more accurate than anecdotes or simcraft.
Handwaving away the fact that there are so few logs of warlocks being represented as doing consistently well on fights, even ones that are basically built for them like DoN says something?

Are warlocks unplayable? Ofcourse not, but it seems to be a baldfaced lie to pretend they're even remotely as good as many other classes right now when they're beat on ST, beat on their niche fights - beat on just about anything unless you're playing at a better level than your guildmates, but you refuse to accept that as a reason for why you might anecdotally be doing well in your guild because you perceive it as an insult to them.
It was predicted before the raid, it's been supported by the results from raids and it's supported by Blizzard themselves by the look of it - they're not throwing out blanket buffs to the spec because they think it's doing fine, what more do you want?

Is anyone else concerned about Affliction in mythic+ now? I'm primarily a mythic+ player, and to me it feels as if our trash clearing is going to be simply too good. They buffed one of the aspects of Aff that we were already very strong with, and the spec subsequently shot up to a point where it's competitive with Destruction in pure ST, if initial reports are to be believed. Since we scale so well with the number of mobs present (SoC/GoSac/Phantom Singularity if you really want) it's going to be a terrifyingly powerful spec in mythic+. It was already very good, but for progression I think it's a top pick now.

With the new balance changes I could see the three DPS going something like Outlaw Rogue / Affliction Warlock / Fire Mage. This would make sense, as Aff should be good at something, but I think we're looking at pre-nerf Havoc levels of DPS in AoE situations.

Have I missed something? Afflictions buffs seemed slanted towards AOE, why would it suddenly have shot up to the point that it's competing with destruction in pure ST when that spec received blanket buffs to it's toolkit more or less?

I can see affliction being a strong AOE spec for M+ if you can pull enough to keep the explosions going, but I can't understand why affliction would be competing with destro on TS when it was weaker to begin with and took a 5% buff to agony as opposed to the 10%+ other specs got across the board.

[Irian]

Backdraft, Reverse Entropy, FnB, GSac, Havoc. Single target is fine. Easy 225-250k ST, 300k+ with lust/Lord of the Flames. It does not drop hard and this build is plenty capable of being involved in 3 chest groups. Most versatile dungeon talents you can run.

What the hell groups are you running with where 200-300k ST is considered good and have you seen what other classes are capable of bursting? I'm being serious right now, those numbers are not exactly stellar. FnB alone also will not allow you to keep up with anything the likes of mages or hunters can do.
That's my point. Give me a good reason why something like FnB isn't baseline. The class is fucked by comparison and can't keep up with other actually good RDPS that don't have to choose between AoE and ST. Do you get it yet?

if you don't want to turn something into a "dick comparing competition, don't insult peoples groups acting like the only way you can do well is if everyone else sucks, especially if you don't know how to play your own class properly.

Read the above reply that made me state that to begin with. If people come at me with stupid and disrespectful shit then yes, I'm going to reply back with the same tone. His immediate statement out the gate was to "get good". And similarly, your first post is again another similar statement despite the fact that by your own admission your numbers are poor. When fire mages and hunters are bursting 400k to even 500k ST and drastically higher AoE, a pure DPS class with no specs that can ever see those numbers unless the stars align is not good balance. Because you haven't played with players that are good at those classes does not mean that it's okay for warlocks to be capped at mediocrity and forced to choose between whether we're able to pull ST or AoE.

This is a conversation that I feel is wasted on you though, considering you take a rebuttal of an ignorant attitude as "disrespectful shit". Someone who doesn't give respect doesn't deserve it.