Mythic+ shouldn't have time limits

[Deleted]

I agree that time time limits sorta puts it off to me.

Its just a rush fest instead of being hard content.
They could make it hard by adding a lot of different abilities to the bosses, way more afixes and stuff to trash. Make the trash un-cc able if thats the problem.

Making it a rush fest is just boring to me. There is no strategy to it really, just aoe fest and stuff

[Deleted]

It can't be ignored when it going to pressure players into the "fast" choices, rather than just players who can actually do their job.
That will dictate classes, because it has done enough already in content without timers.
Challenge modes proved beyond any doubt that it was wrong.

It is removing choice.
I said nothing about it "dumbing down" or about it reducing difficulty.
It dictating that there are good and bad class or spec choices for no reason other than timers is doing just the opposite of what you claim, It is dumbing down your options, through reducing them.
You pick what is "superior" only.

I can see that you are agigated, but I don't seem to see a solution to this problem.
Balance problems are always very apparant at higher difficulty content. That is why top guilds are not going to bring Warlocks to mythic raiding.

Maybe an option to remove the time visually and reduce loot to 1 chest? This could be done.
but no time limit would take away the skill required from improvising and making decisions on the fly. Many people can follow easy orders, but only few can think for themselves and act under pressure.

It is only one very small element of world of warcraft. Beating the time makes my group really happy. Happies than just beating content
You also fight against yourself. Against you from the past. Against your previous best.

About the balance problems I agree. Some classes are not that good in mythics+, but that is because Blizzard hasn't quite figured it out with LEGION yet.

[ComputerNerd]

The design of the game is "deciding" that. The very nature of the design is going to result in an optimal group makeup. Players look at the difficulty, determine what is best for over coming that difficult, and then build a party to best meet that challenge.

Players are dictating that sub-optimal is not acceptable, something which is hugely different.
The format of an MMO is not inherently dictating that some specs or classes aren't good enough.
Players are doing that.

I can see that you are agigated, but I don't seem to see a solution to this problem.
Balance problems are always very apparant at higher difficulty content. That is why top guilds are not going to bring Warlocks to mythic raiding.

Maybe an option to remove the time visually and reduce loot to 1 chest? This could be done.
but no time limit would take away the skill required from improvising and making decisions on the fly. Many people can follow easy orders, but only few can think for themselves and act under pressure.

It is only one very small element of world of warcraft. Beating the time makes my group really happy. Happies than just beating content
You also fight against yourself. Against you from the past. Against your previous best.

About the balance problems I agree. Some classes are not that good in mythics+, but that is because Blizzard hasn't quite figured it out with LEGION yet.

The solution is removal of the timer which disuades real choice.
Because it is obvious to anyone not in denial what the consequence of that is.

It is only going to mean a narrow selection of acceptable choices, if not a single combination.
Going that route is actually taking the easy way out.

If people want to call themselves "skilled", then don't go optimal.
Go a harder route.
You are the ones avoiding the challenge, rather than embracing it.

[callipygoustp]

Players are dictating that sub-optimal is not acceptable, something which is hugely different.
The format of an MMO is not inherently dictating that some specs or classes aren't good enough.
Players are doing that.

Again, the design results in there being an optimal composition for over coming a challenge. Are players not supposed to seek out the best methods for over coming a challenge?

As I said early, this is the nature of the a multi class game. In all challenges some classes/specs are going to be inherently sub-optimal.

[ComputerNerd]

Again, the design results in there being an optimal composition for over coming a challenge. Are players not supposed to seek out the best methods for over coming a challenge?

As I said early, this is the nature of the a multi class game. In all challenges some classes/specs are going to be inherently sub-optimal.

They are avoiding the challenge, not trying to meet it.
The player-dictated exclusion is not the nature of the game.
That is the issue here.

Just a bunch of hypocrites actively avoiding a challenge, and then accusing others of doing just that.

[Biomega]

Timers are a necessary evil if you want to stop silly things like 4 tanks 1 healer runs. They are also the only truly effective way of presenting a tangible challenge to DPS classes - tanks and healers get to deal with incoming damage, but without a timer, DPS would have nothing to measure up against.

All that being said, what I do really think I could do without is the extra loot chest nonsense. Give loot if you beat it, the end. Upgrade the key based on sub-timers, sure, but giving an extra loot chest for fast clears devolves M+ into stress-fest zergs I could really do without.

[Deleted]

The solution is removal of the timer which disuades real choice.
Because it is obvious to anyone not in denial what the consequence of that is.

It is only going to mean a narrow selection of acceptable choices, if not a single combination.
Going that route is actually taking the easy way out.

If people want to call themselves "skilled", then don't go optimal.
Go a harder route.
You are the ones avoiding the challenge, rather than embracing it.

Well I am playing as Warlock in LEGION and doing mythics+ so I am already doing hard mode. Compared to hunter, rogues, demon hunters, feral, fire mages it is a pretty bad class. No baseline interrupt, horrible at movement dps.

To be honest I find random legendaries and super random loot (up to 895 if you are super lucky from random WorldQuests) to be much more problematic.


I personally like the idea of a time limit and making loot based on time beaten. This is my opinion and I stand by it. The reason for that I explained earlier. Taking away the pressure of beating the time would allow very slow and grindy strategies with slow pulling, CC, using lots of cooldowns (you basically could use Heroism/Bloodlust on every trash group and wait 10 minutes after).

There is lots of skill involved in going fast and improvising and most importantly proper management of cooldowns etc. In my opinion players who can play fast, do well under pressure and improvise if need be are much more skilled and should be rewarded higher compared to people who take it extremely slow and cautious.

[ComputerNerd]

Well I am playing as Warlock in LEGION and doing mythics+ so I am already doing hard mode. Compared to hunter, rogues, demon hunters, feral, fire mages it is a pretty bad class. No baseline interrupt, horrible at movement dps.

To be honest I find random legendaries and super random loot (up to 895 if you are super lucky from random WorldQuests) to be much more problematic.


I personally like the idea of a time limit and making loot based on time beaten. This is my opinion and I stand by it. The reason for that I explained earlier. Taking away the pressure of beating the time would allow very slow and grindy strategies with slow pulling, CC, using lots of cooldowns (you basically could use Heroism/Bloodlust on every trash group and wait 10 minutes after).

There is lots of skill involved in going fast and improvising and most importantly proper management of cooldowns etc. In my opinion players who can play fast, do well under pressure and improvise if need be are much more skilled and should be rewarded higher compared to people who take it extremely slow and cautious.

There is a lack of improvising or adjustment in actively limiting class or spec choices.
You say what it should be about, but that is what those players are actively avoiding.
And that is behaviour the time limit is promoting.
It has done so since the introduction of challenge modes.

It is entirely a player-created construct, that sub-optimal equals insufficient.
There are choices by design for a reason.
If there were simply right and wrong choice, why have them at all.

[callipygoustp]

They are avoiding the challenge, not trying to meet it.
The player-dictated exclusion is not the nature of the game.
That is the issue here.

Just a bunch of hypocrites actively avoiding a challenge, and then accusing others of doing just that.

Rubbish. Planning the best method for over coming a challenge is by no means the definition of avoiding the challenge. That's laughably ridiculous.

Player exclusion is inherent in any multi player game and there are many many MANY reasons for it. People wanting to play at a high level and as such excluding people that can't play at that level (whether it be class, spec, or raw skill) has been an easy target for complaints for as long as I have been playing mmorpgs. Removing a timer from one aspect of the game isn't going to solve that.

Once again the game is dealing with one group of people that do not like a feature deciding that as such no one else should have access to it.

[Nize]

If there was no time limit, Blizz would have to increase the modifiers on everything to make you work for the gear that you're earning, thus now, you're fighting harder stuff, taking longer than you would to get the gear that you want out of it making it a much less efficient way to get gear.

[ComputerNerd]

Rubbish. Planning the best method for over coming a challenge is by no means the definition of avoiding the challenge. That's laughably ridiculous.

Player exclusion is inherent in any multi player game and there are many many MANY reasons for it. People wanting to play at a high level and as such excluding people that can't play at that level (whether it be class, spec, or raw skill) has been an easy target for complaints for as long as I have been playing mmorpgs. Removing a timer from one aspect of the game isn't going to solve that.

Once again the game is dealing with one group of people that do not like a feature deciding that as such no one else should have access to it.

What planning is there in players restricting class choice.
It is actively avoiding it.

You are refusing to see the truth.
Player exclusion is a player-created construct.
The game is not dictating that in ANY form, fact.
Players are deciding that only.

Are blizzard through any design in the game saying that any given class or spec should not be taken to mythic + ?
No.
Only players are.

That restriction is not inherent in any form to the format of the game, nor dictated by any design decision.
Players are choosing to avoid a challenge by dictating that optimal is the only way to do things.

Look at how the viability of classes and specs have changed significantly since vanilla.
There were many even less viable for specific content.
That change, that greater inclusion completely kills your argument that is inherent to the multi-class MMO.

[Deleted]

There is a lack of improvising or adjustment in actively limiting class or spec choices.
You say what it should be about, but that is what those players are actively avoiding.
And that is behaviour the time limit is promoting.
It has done so since the introduction of challenge modes.

It is entirely a player-created construct, that sub-optimal equals insufficient.
There are choices by design for a reason.
If there were simply right and wrong choice, why have them at all.

It always work like that. Since no perfect balance is possibly players will gravitate towards the easiest way.
In Arena there will always be a over-representation of the strongest class, even if said class is only 5% stronger than the second strongest class.

It is the same with talents. 99% of all good players are going to skill the same talent if they have a choice of 3 and one out of those 3 is just a little bit better than the others.

If the time limit is removed other factors are deciding. tanky classes and cc is becoming more important. Classes who have more damage, but less defensive are going to be left out.
You need to realize that you are posting your opinion and no an objective fact that people do not understand.

Maybe there would be 3 Tanks + 2 Healer comps if they remove the time limit and this would be the only possible composition to make mythic+10 (or whatever).

[cuafpr]

Honest question, I am not trying to trap you and this isn't coming from a place of judgement or aggression:

Why do you do mythic+? The time limit plays such a major part in this content, and you say you hate it. This goes for the others that have said they 'hate time limits'

I want to know. I'm sincerely curious.

b.c. its needed for gear progression / or an alt path for gear progression, i'm just against time limited runs in general, its why i didn't bother with the old CM modes but at least that was just mog gear, and mounts. I feel to make this a true alt path for gear than raiding dropping the artificial time limit part would be a better option. its like if mythic raids had time limits while HC didn't.

I actually haven't done one yet simply b.c. of the time limit part, as a tank i despise the rush rush rush mentality. I'd rather go slower
and enjoy the run. (exception being massive over gearing).

edit: I'm also against bosses that have nothing more than fight for X amount of time .. ok bam wipe. I like built in enrage/wipe issues even a simple rage bar that fills based on dmg to the raid, or a floor that slowly floods/fills with flame etc is better. than ok you've been hitting on me for 10 mins, one shot you all now kbye. blah its lazy design imo.

[ComputerNerd]

It always work like that. Since no perfect balance is possibly players will gravitate towards the easiest way.
In Arena there will always be a over-representation of the strongest class, even if said class is only 5% stronger than the second strongest class.

It is the same with talents. 99% of all good players are going to skill the same talent if they have a choice of 3 and one out of those 3 is just a little bit better than the others.

If the time limit is removed other factors are deciding. tanky classes and cc is becoming more important. Classes who have more damage, but less defensive are going to be left out.
You need to realize that you are posting your opinion and no an objective fact that people do not understand.

Maybe there would be 3 Tanks + 2 Healer comps if they remove the time limit and this would be the only possible composition to make mythic+10 (or whatever).

And those are still player dictated, not by it being a multi-class MMO.
It is objective opinion, that blizzard are not doing anything that dictates that sub-optimal should be excluded.
Players choose that which offers the best result.
And what is what I am saying, is that it is players that are creating the exclusions.

That is the issue here, players creating artificial rules, dictating "absolute requirements" which are simply not true.

Removing the time-limit does not in any way dictate that a group has to be 3 tanks and 2 healers.
That "might" be the optimal way in numbers, but it is still in no form an absolute requirement.
You just decided that yourself, a demonstration of the problem.

[Deleted]

Lol @ the people that think a time limit makes the content challenging. It doesn't. It just means you stack the few lucky specs with burst AoE and strong single target and it's gg.

[callipygoustp]

What planning is there in players restricting class choice.
It is actively avoiding it.

What planning is there? Seriously? Players choose a class/spec combo to over come specific challenges. Pretty standard in WoW whether it be raiding, challenge modes, dungeon achievements, mythic+ : players will determine the best strategy to overcome the challenge. Given the number of class/spec combos there are, of course there are going to be less desired classes. The planning isn't to figure out which classes to exclude. The planning is to figure out the best way to over come a challenge.

You are refusing to see the truth.

That's funny. Here I am pointing out the basics of the game and I'm being told I'm not seeing the truth.

Player exclusion is a player-created construct.
The game is not dictating that in ANY form, fact.
Players are deciding that only.
Are blizzard through any design in the game saying that any given class or spec should not be taken to mythic + ?
No.
Only players are.

Players make the decision based on what they are given to over come. If all encounters were designed equally and all classes/specs performed exactly the same, players wouldn't have to choose. However, none of that is the case and as such competitive players are forced by the game design to restrict which players they include. I asked earlier, I'll ask again:

Are players not supposed to seek out the best methods for over coming a challenge?

That restriction is not inherent in any form to the format of the game, nor dictated by any design decision.
Players are choosing to avoid a challenge by dictating that optimal is the only way to do things.

I've already spoken to this in other posts and in this post. That you choose not see how basic this is to the WoW gaming model is on you.

[ComputerNerd]

I've already spoken to this in other posts and in this post. That you choose not see how basic this is to the WoW gaming model is on you.

This is not inherent to the model in any form.
The game is not saying that classes or specs should be excluded if they don't meet some arbitrary number.

It is players dictating that only.
You choose not to see that.

Where is the game dictating that class choice or spec choice for you.
It is not.

It is players deciding that because some spec is superior at AoE, that an AoE friendly Mythic Plus absolutely requires that spec.

[Deleted]

You can keep doing your normal mythic dungeons if you dont wanna do things fast dude Me myself I love the time limit, makes it so boring otherwise...

[Jacpierre]

I'm tempted to mention how I've run some already, but then you'd go OH WHOA WHOA BUDDY I HAVE TOO, SO WHAT?

I agree that CC has fallen by the wayside but that's just the game we're playing now. I do appreciate it when a rogue throws out a blind on a ranged mob now and then though.

I guess if you didn't want a total speed run zergfest that you hate, discuss with your group beforehand that all you want is to beat the timer without worrying about bonus chests and be clear about it, then you won't have people killing themselves over the time limit.

You are missing the point. I'm sure you have completed some, even though you incorrectly stated that loot doesn't scale with speed of completion. I'm sure most of us have completed some. Blizzard has even stated that the timer is not supposed to be difficult to beat, and I don't really think it is. My issue is different than the OPs. I don't mind the timer. What I mind is that there is extra loot for faster completions, something that isn't present at all in the model they copied (Diablo 3). This encourages people to stack cleave teams and rush the dungeon. I don't mind if people want to rush dungeons, for epeen bragging rights on time. I do think it is a silly mechanic to encourage people to rush for a few shinies. It would be a better system imo if they just rewarded slightly more loot at harder difficulties, but to place rewards based on completion time is counter to their stated objective, and the model they are emulating, and in a game where all people care about is more, more, more, it is destructive to intended mission of the dungeon.

Either revamp how rewards are given out, or adjust the timers up slightly and increase the difficulty through mob scaling, but in a game that has gotten farther and farther from "balance" insofar as class damage and utility is concerned, it is currently poorly implemented. Time is not even close to the best way to make something challenging. It's actually an extremely cheap and basic tactic.

- - - Updated - - -

Lol @ the people that think a time limit makes the content challenging. It doesn't. It just means you stack the few lucky specs with burst AoE and strong single target and it's gg.

Or the tank that is better able to hold those mobs in place while dps aoe's them down.

This is the same problem that is occuring in PvP atm. These bad new players think that speed = fun/skill. They think matches should be over in seconds not minutes, and that "skill" = blowing cooldowns faster/having them be better cooldowns. Like a demon hunter who thinks he is better than you are because he does more dps, without realizing that it is all mechanics and numbers tuning,and his only real competition is another havoc DH, not an affliction warlock or arcane mage.

[Dasani]

Time limit is difficulty. You can't just wipe and start over repeatedly, you have to do it well, you have to do it right, and you have to do it quickly.

You still get loot even if you fail the timer, so that is fine. You just get more loot if you're fast and get better keystones.

Mythic plus is 100% fine the way it is.