Flag-stomping teacher has no regrets, wants student punished

[Kalis]

Can you kindly stop it with this sort of communist nonsense!? Or woe to you as the eagles of freedom descend down upon you to show you the error of your ways.

But really though, that whole ritual seems uncannily similar to pagan ones that I've read about. Now that I think about it, that's how you "bury" or get rid of a Quran as well.

Very pagan, no Christian would ever do that for a flag. Thou shalt not worship graven images and all that malarkey.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

Can you kindly stop it with this sort of communist nonsense!? Or woe to you as the eagles of freedom descend down upon you to show you the error of your ways.

But really though, that whole ritual seems uncannily similar to pagan ones that I've read about. Now that I think about it, that's how you "bury" or get rid of a Quran as well.

So are you implying that properly burning a American flag is pagan, or muslim, because it can't be both lol. Or are you decrying all such reverent treatment of beloved symbols? I suppose that's a valid opinion, though I don't agree. Displays of symbolic behavior and attachment make up the very texture of a culture. A world without them would be dull indeed.

- - - Updated - - -

Very pagan, no Christian would ever do that for a flag. Thou shalt not worship graven images and all that malarkey.

Lol I think your theological perspective is a bit flawed.

[hydrium]

Well, he's within his rights to stomp on the flag, at least one he already owns.

I don't really see why you 'cons get so butt-hurt yourself. Oh no, someone stomped on the flag, someone doesn't like America oh no my whole world view of America being loved by everyone in the world is shattered. Seriously? Do you actually believe that sort of garbage?

It's not the piece of cloth in itself. It's what it stands for and the people whose blood has been spilled to protect what it stands for to allow butthurt liberals to scream about muh oppression.

[Kalis]

Lol I think your theological perspective is a bit flawed.

The US flag is a secular symbol, you are not allowed to venerate secular symbols to the extent that you are giving them a mockery of burial rites. You could get away with something like that as satire, but not if you are doing it genuinely.


Up next on Oxymorons Today: Atheists who worship Baal claim they are Christians.

[satimy]

Flag desecration may be controversial but it's not a crime. If anything the students learned the dark side of what the first ammendment protects

[Wells]

It's not the piece of cloth in itself. It's what it stands for and the people whose blood has been spilled to protect what it stands for to allow butthurt liberals to scream about muh oppression.

"You've got the freedom to complain so stop complaining"

[ArguesWithStrangers]

The US flag is a secular symbol, you are not allowed to venerate secular symbols to the extent that you are giving them a mockery of burial rites. You could get away with something like that as satire, but not if you are doing it genuinely.


Up next on Oxymorons Today: Atheists who worship Baal claim they are Christians.

You and I've debated before, and your too intelligent for this.

Idolatry

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

Catechism of the Catholic Church

So as long as I don't think the American flag is God, or represents God or any other god, I'm not committing Idolatry. This is very basic theology and you know it. Don't stoop so low as to creating strawmans to show your contempt. You are perfectly capable of doing that without resorting to logical fallacies.

[May90]

I mean, the main issue that I have is if the teacher pursues this as legal defamation, which he hinted at, since it does seem like a double standard to me to legally attack the student for ultimately engaging in the same rights that he was.

As for him, I think that the complicated nature of the law is the most interesting part of it, because there are a number of ways that his termination, should the school board decide to do it, would be fully legal and defensible in court. First, have to keep in mind that at will termination is at play; they do not have to fire him for an express reason, and can have a compounded list of technobabble as to why they're letting him go that nonetheless incorporates otherwise protected speech. Hell, they can easily say "while we personally aknowledge his civil liberties for freedom of expression, his actions have caused a significant rift between our school and the community it serves; if the community feels that his actions were completely unacceptable for bla bla bla" and get rid of him that way.

He can also be fired explicitly for committing a misdemeanor while working, and in the state his actions are legally a misdemeanor, if not pursuable in court due to first amendment rights... it raises the question of whether or not a particular law is still the law of the land if it runs counter to a separate but relevant court case but has not been challenged in court? If so, is it actionable outside of court, and can actions based on its status as a misdemeanor be challenged? And in terms of at will termination, is the school board operating as a part of the government, or a delegate of private citizens operating as administrators of public property? If they are operating as private citizens, the first amendment need not apply and at will termination comes into play without any restriction.

I don't see anything hypocritical in exercising his right for free speech by asking for a legal action against the student he found violating the rules. What would be hypocritical is for him to say didn't have the legal right to criticize him for stomping on the flag - which he didn't, AFAIK.

I'm not sure whether the school had the legal right to terminate his contract. That said, the administration made a big mistake by terminating this contract, as now this story will make the teacher into a martyr and only strengthens his position. So, once again, the teacher got the result he wanted. The lesson taught to a couple dozen kids, now has a chance to be taught to thousands reading the story and thinking on it.

So here is a scenario. Suppose I, a soldier, in uniform, under my official capacity, in front of junior soldiers over whom I have significant authority, undermine the President of the United States and Commander in Chief because of my genuine political differences with him? The answer is I can be disciplined, loss of rank, loss of pay and even be courtmartialed and see prison if the offence is egregious enough.

Even if I do it in my capacity as a private citizen it can be dangerous, because though my rights under the 1st Amendment and numerous Supreme Court rulings protect my speech in this capacity, I can still suffer consequences of running afoul my chain-of-command and be denied promotion, assignments and be denied the ability to remain in the military. This is why I deleted my facebook account and do most of my political mud-flinging under a pseudonym on gaming forum. Even doing that entails some measure of risk, and where I to suffer for it, I'd mainly have myself to blame.

The same can be said for this teacher, though I really doubt he will suffer much. Society at large rewards his actions far more often than it punishes them.

When you enlist in the army, you sign a contract which prescribes who and how you should obey. If you undermine the order of the President, then you've violated the contract, and, as such, follows a legal action prescribed in the contract.

And, actually, you do not have to follow an illegal order. If the president orders the US army to start shooting civilians, then the soldiers do not have to obey that order - in fact, they have to not obey it, because the order contradicts the law which states that the army is to never open fire on American civilians.

It's not the piece of cloth in itself. It's what it stands for and the people whose blood has been spilled to protect what it stands for to allow butthurt liberals to scream about muh oppression.

It's only because you've idolized this piece of cloth. And now you complain that not everyone idolizes it the way you do. Too bad! You will have to deal with it, mate!

[Khuros]

Because flag burning is offensive to many people.

Who the fuck cares. He didn't even burn it.

- - - Updated - - -

thats fine but he should realize americans take flag burning or desecration very seriously. its not something you do even to prove a point. the school can fire his ass if they want to.

No they can't. The school is public IE government run. He was using his 1st amendment there. They can NOT fire him for that.

[Kalis]

You and I've debated before, and your too intelligent for this.

Idolatry

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

Catechism of the Catholic Church

So as long as I don't think the American flag is God, or represents God or any other god, I'm not committing Idolatry. This is very basic theology and you know it. Don't stoop so low as to creating strawmans to show your contempt. You are perfectly capable of doing that without resorting to logical fallacies.

Not every Christian is a Catholic, so quoting Catholic doctrine is a bit shaky, however even 2113 there points out that you cannot replace God with the reverence or honouring of the state and mimicry of Christian burial rites is doing just that.

Do you not see the connection between 'Pledge of Allegiance, moment of silence and burial', and the Christian version that consists of 'prayer, moment of silence and burial'? It is literally a mimicry of it, I am guessing it was explicitly intended as such, where the pledge (to the state) is used in place of the prayer (to God), so it falls under idolatry even in the definition you gave.

[Korlok]

Respecting the beliefs of others doesn't mean not challenging them. Especially at high schools, where kids are supposed to be taught independent and critical thinking, challenging their beliefs is twice as important.

In fact, what I'd like to see at schools is something like this. Optional Christianity class. Most kids in the class are Christian. Teacher asks them inconvenient questions that go against the Christian doctrine. These questions teach kids to not be offended when something they hold as "sacred" is being attacked, but, rather, to use their critical thinking themselves, to challenge themselves.

That's why I think what the teacher did was actually brilliant: there is no better way to teach one critical thinking, than to hit their most sacred belief/dogma with a stick, forcing them to react.

More education should be focused around the bolded here.

[Dr Assbandit]

So are you implying that properly burning a American flag is pagan, or muslim, because it can't be both lol. Or are you decrying all such reverent treatment of beloved symbols? I suppose that's a valid opinion, though I don't agree. Displays of symbolic behavior and attachment make up the very texture of a culture. A world without them would be dull indeed.

Not at all, it was more in the line of actual interest in how an honored symbol is being treated in similar fashion to and can draw parallels to ancient religious burial rights.

[matt4pack]

Who the fuck cares. He didn't even burn it.

- - - Updated - - -



No they can't. The school is public IE government run. He was using his 1st amendment there. They can NOT fire him for that.

Um yeah they can. You can't just do or say anything as a teacher and then scream first amendment. I don't care about desecrating the flag but this was clearly inappropriate in this setting.

[Wells]

Um yeah they can. You can't just do or say anything as a teacher and then scream first amendment. I don't care about desecrating the flag but this was clearly inappropriate in this setting.

Not really the place of government to punish "inappropriate" speech.

[matt4pack]

Not really the place of government to punish "inappropriate" speech.

Seriously you know that if something politically incorrect was said the people defending this would be foaming at the mouth to have him removed. Can we stop being hypocrites for once maybe?

And yes it is the place of government to punish when it's done in the classroom while earning a salary.

[Wells]

Seriously you know that if something politically incorrect was said the people defending this would be foaming at the mouth to have him removed.

And yes it is the place of government to punish when it's done in the classroom while earning a salary.

This has nothing to do with anything. The government doesn't have the authority to punish people for speech. Even their employees. Nothing about what he said prevented him from doing his job.

[matt4pack]

This has nothing to do with anything. The government doesn't have the authority to punish people for speech. Even their employees. Nothing about what he said prevented him from doing his job.

Yeah the first amendment defense only applies when it's used for something you agree with. How convenient and hypocritical.

[ControlWarrior]

All this is garbage. There is no "indoctrination" in providing an example of what free speech protects, particularly such an innocent and inoffensive example as stepping on a flag.

I seriously do not understand how anyone thinks that action is this wildly objectionable. It's a piece of cloth. Some of you folks wear it as underwear.

The flag itself is a symbol, and while others may interpret it as different things, a lot of Americans see it as a symbol of our service men and women who sacrificed themselves in battlefields all over the world. People who chose to desecrate the flag know this, and understand the emotional link that this imagery invokes. So please, unless you can appreciate this, please don't assume it means nothing.

[Endus]

Yeah the first amendment defense only applies when it's used for something you agree with. How convenient and hypocritical.

It's more that the things you call "political correctness" are all things involving hate speech or other prejudice, for the most part, and that stuff is not allowed under the teacher's codes of ethics.

Stomping on flags, however, is.

They aren't the same thing, at all.

[Wells]

Yeah the first amendment defense only applies when it's used for something you agree with. How convenient and hypocritical.

What the fuck are you talking about?