Flag-stomping teacher has no regrets, wants student punished

[Wells]

In civilized countries you cannot be fired for non-professional reasons short of breach of contract.

Let me tell you aaaaalll about "right-to-work".....

[Melenkor]

Nope. Government is still subject to all its normal restrictions, even when its an employer.


Right-to-Work doesn't superscede the first amendment as to what the government is allowed to do.



It does when the government is your employer.

All the first amendment does is protect you from criminal prosecution, you can most certainly be fired for upsetting your boss or disrespecting the institution you work for.

In civilized countries you cannot be fired for non-professional reasons short of breach of contract.

We're talking about good ol' North Carolina. We don't do "civilized" 'round here.

[Wikiy]

I don't understand why so much of this discussion is being led (even here) under the pretense that he defiled the flag. Defiling the flag is an abstract act. Stomping on a flag isn't defilement unless it's done with the express purpose of ridiculing what it represents. This guy was doing the exact opposite. Anyone with anything between their ears worth the space can recognize that he was actually honoring the flag.

[Wells]

All the first amendment does is protect you from criminal prosecution, you can most certainly be fired for upsetting your boss or disrespecting the institution you work for.


We're talking about good ol' North Carolina. We don't do "civilized" 'round here.

It protects you from government punishing speech. Firing someone for their speech is punishing.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[1]

Pretty plain/

[chrisberb]

I don't understand why so much of this discussion is being led (even here) under the pretense that he defiled the flag. Defiling the flag is an abstract act. Stomping on a flag isn't defilement unless it's done with the express purpose of ridiculing what it represents. This guy was doing the exact opposite. Anyone with anything between their ears worth the space can recognize that he was actually honoring the flag.

Exactly. All this talk of desecration, defiling, and stomping really stems from what he actually did...stepped on it. It wasn't followed by some speech about oppression or social activism.
For better or worse, this is why teachers have unions and tenure. So that if some parents get upset about something their kids were taught (like science, history, or even about the constitution), they won't get immediately fired. Education is as much about learning TO think as it is about learning facts.

[Gref]

Being lucky to have been born in the US doesn't mean you shouldn't criticize the country.

still what do you want then? If you are not happy with your country what do you want to change by stomping the flag? I really don't get it. Also I hate my government, rotten, corrupted to the core they are. But nobody would step on the flag including me here. But what about americans? by stepping on the flag, is it criticizing the government? I do not get it. What do you want? what do you hope to accomplish by stepping on it? It won't accomplish anything except pissing off people imo.

[caervek]

Last week Americans were getting upset that in the UK you can be prosecuted for posting racist hate speech targeting specific individuals on the internet. This week Americans are getting angry because somebody stepped on a flag to demonstrate freedom of expression.

:P

[faithbane]

Another thread that shows no one cares about free speech when its someone they dont like.

there is nothing wrong with saying I think your idea is great/stupid. Its also a part of that "Free speech" you are talking about. There is association with positiveness and free speech you can be as harsh and negative as you want, no?

[Vargulf the Happy Husky]

My single Target DPS :'(

But in all seriousness, free speech is free speech. People should be able to stomp and burn it even if it offends you. Look at the shit with Religion vs gay marriage. Not giving a marriage licence is apparently free speech. Why isn't this covered?

Or is free speech only free speech sometimes?

I agree mostly, but free speech isn't free. On top of that, the teacher stomping on the flag is legal, but he didn't think about the attention it would draw to himself and his school. Many times our actions, small and large, don't just effect us.

My issue with our society today would be that no one cares how they're effecting those around them with their "free speech."

[GennGreymane]

there is nothing wrong with saying I think your idea is great/stupid. Its also a part of that "Free speech" you are talking about. There is association with positiveness and free speech you can be as harsh and negative as you want, no?

whoooooooosh over the head.

[zenkai]

I don't think I'll ever find it not weird the level of reverence a large number of Americans give to a piece of cloth.

I mean, his point about free speech is kinda on the nose considering the supposed vitriol it's attracted.

It's about respecting the symbol, not the cloth. We have our rights and freedom thanks to countless lives that paid for it in blood.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

Not every Christian is a Catholic, so quoting Catholic doctrine is a bit shaky, however even 2113 there points out that you cannot replace God with the reverence or honouring of the state and mimicry of Christian burial rites is doing just that.

Do you not see the connection between 'Pledge of Allegiance, moment of silence and burial', and the Christian version that consists of 'prayer, moment of silence and burial'? It is literally a mimicry of it, I am guessing it was explicitly intended as such, where the pledge (to the state) is used in place of the prayer (to God), so it falls under idolatry even in the definition you gave.

Other Christians can stand up for their own doctrine. I'm only obliged to defend mine. I disagree with your interpretation of 2113. When it forbids simulating worship, it is in the context of simulating worship of anything that is not God as though it is God or any other god in order to appease a secular power. An excellent example of this is Daniel 3:15:

"Now therefore if you be ready at what hour soever you shall hear the sound of the trumpet, flute, harp, sackbut, and psaltery, and symphony, and of all kind of music, prostrate yourselves, and adore the statue which I have made: but if you do not adore, you shall be cast the same hour into the furnace of burning fire: and who is the God that shall deliver you out of my hand?"

Here King Nebuchadnezzar demanded Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego worship an idol as though it was God, and they rightfully refused. All this is to say your intention matters. Whether you are saluting a flag, standing for an anthem, or bowing to a Monarch, you are not committing idolatry so long as you are not treating or appearing to treat that flag, anthem or monarch as though it is God himself.

[haxartus]

It's about respecting the symbol, not the cloth. We have our rights and freedom thanks to countless lives that paid for it in blood.

If you can't express views that go against the public opinion, your freedom is imaginary.

[ArguesWithStrangers]

Not at all, it was more in the line of actual interest in how an honored symbol is being treated in similar fashion to and can draw parallels to ancient religious burial rights.

I don't now exactly when or how this particular tradition came about. These things have a way of developing over time. Take the Tomb of the Unknowns for example. When it was first established it was left unguarded. Visitors to Arlington would picnic on top of the sarcophagus because the original one was much lower and could easily be sat on. I can't remember the exact story but it was a retired veteran i believe who witnessed this and decided it was all together unfitting for such an important monument to be so casually regarded. He and a veterans organization started guarding it during their free time while the cemetery was open. Then I believe the parks service guarded it for a while. Eventually the Army took over the job and the 11th Infantry "The Old Guard" began guarding it around the clock 365/7 in 1948. Even after that visitors were allowed right up against the tomb and guard mat and could reach out and touch the guards. It was becoming too much of a chaotic spectacle so they moved the ropes well off the mat and now if you even speak loudly or reach across the rope the guards will come to port arms and bark at you. Becoming a tomb guard is now one of the highest honors and difficult tasks a young soldier can achieve outside of combat itself. I imagine the flag burning ceremony progressed a similar way. The reverence involved increased over time as attachment to the symbol increased.

[Kathandira]

He did this because he was ranting about 1st Amendment and apparently thought it was ok to go this far to make his point. Only now after his antics were caught on film, leading to him being suspended, he's become butt-hurt over it and wants students who took his picture punished.

Quite cowardly. Does something to prove a point, but is ashamed of it once the word gets out that he did it. If he really wanted to prove his point about the first amendment, then he should stick to his guns and take responsibility for what he did.

[Turtlewithnoshell]

The indoctrination of youth and the programming of radical anti-American sentiment is an ever growing and ever vicious plague but its nice to see that its not a nation wide pandemic ...yet.

Worry not friend, these clowns are in the minority by far. They are just very loud and obnoxious.

[Phlegethon]

Ok so meet Lee Francis, a teacher who stomps on a flag in school and threatens to cut it up and set it on fire because "reasons".

He did this because he was ranting about 1st Amendment and apparently thought it was ok to go this far to make his point. Only now after his moonbat antics were caught on film, leading to him being suspended, he's become butt-hurt over it and wants students who took his picture punished. He even goes so far as to say that taking a picture of him stomping on a flag is "defamation of his character" as if some piece of garbage like him had any character to begin with haha.

Now meet Alex Dunn, a student who stood up and took possession of the flag so that this radical moonbat couldn't defile it any further. The link below has a video interview of him, its short, and its worth watching.

The indoctrination of youth and the programming of radical anti-American sentiment is an ever growing and ever vicious plague but its nice to see that its not a nation wide pandemic ...yet.

Look, moonbat doofus posting...
You really don't understand the first amendment of your constitution. Let me guess, you are an avid supporter of the second one?
He is allowed to do what he did. You are allowed to disagree, still does not take away his rights.

The "radical" (hahaha what a joke) anti-murrican sentiment is a plague. The reasons are simple, watch the news. Oh and I don't mean that dribble they call news at Fox "news".

Now, don't you want to post about the war on christianity too? Moonbat. :roll:

[-Nurot]

I wonder if the flag in question was one of the 5% not made in America. That would make the entire thing, that much more ironic.

[Kalis]

Whether you are saluting a flag, standing for an anthem, or bowing to a Monarch, you are not committing idolatry so long as you are not treating or appearing to treat that flag, anthem or monarch as though it is God himself.

I didn't saying saluting a flag, standing for an anthem or bowing to a monarch, was committing idolatry. You are not replacing God in any of them, though bowing to a monarch could be, depending on how the monarch is viewed. However substituting a prayer for a pledge in order to honour/revere a secular symbol is replacing God in a Christian burial rite and qualifies as forbidden under idolatry.

The reason you don't see anything wrong with it is due to it being culturally acceptable where you come from, but I don't believe that you can't see the obvious parallels between pledge/silence/burial and prayer/silence/burial, which would cause it to be a no go for Christians (including Catholics) not from that culture.

The way it is structured is almost certainly intended to imitate burial rites, probably by people thinking they were being respectful without realising they were being profane.

[TwoNineMarine]

People are upset that people are upset at the disrespect towards our flag.

Our flag is more than a piece of cloth to a lot of people in this nation.

The amusing thing is that the people who actually care and respect our flag are the ones who serve as first responders and military.

Very very rarely do you see our first responders stepping on, spitting on, or burning our flag.

Funny how that works isn't it?