So Healers, happy now?

[Hexme]

good thing they aren't and haven't been for years now, in fact expansion it gets easier and easier to faceroll them since TBC

You must be ether new, in denial or have short term memory cause Cata and Mop healers were damn immortal, like literally you would have 1 or 2 deaths at most in pvp and thats if you were a bad healer, also rdruid and hpld have been the damn go to go healers in arena since tbc, hell rdruid/war was the reason why 2s were taken out of end of season rewards/titles.

You're that type of person that says "remember when plds were op in wrath", and I'm that type of person that says "oh you mean horde plds cause they had seal of blood which to this day is still one of the most bursty seals plds ever had, meanwhile alliance plds had sot, a wet noodle hitting seal that had a ramp up time of 15 sec".

Don't try and pull a made imaginary event in wow pvp, I've been pvping in WoW since 2005

Alright, we've just come down to sniping and sarcasm now.

So, in an attempt to get this back to productive discussion:
@ShiyoKozuki @Saberstrike @Hexme

Mind sharing your vision of PvP Arena/RBGs with us? I'm honestly curious what you expect in an Arena where the set up of 2 DPS/ 1 Healer can work if one DPS can take down the Healer without aid.

Was there a previous Season where your vision was met?

If they went back to mop style healer survivability they need to bring back high cost heals of wrath and the tbc/vanilla ms debuffs. As for dps the need to drastically bring back dr on stuns, give healers a disarm ability/spell (example, holy plds can have a "flash" that disarms a target for 4 secs, a resto shaman can have a "tremor totem" that shakes the ground to disarm targets).

[Stormspellz]

You must be ether new, in denial or have short term memory cause Cata and Mop healers were damn immortal, like literally you would have 1 or 2 deaths at most in pvp and thats if you were a bad healer, also rdruid and hpld have been the damn go to go healers in arena since tbc, hell rdruid/war was the reason why 2s were taken out of end of season rewards/titles.

Ya so immortal in cata that triple dps was a common thing in 3s. and getting 100-0 by a rogues/hunter thugs was common. and 2s stop giving rewards in s6 long past the glory days of war/druid s2-s3, so much for me having "bad memory"

Has specific healers been to strong at times? certainly druids in bc, shamans in cata, ect. But to say "healers" have been immortal is simple wrong outside of the whole paladin reliance bug during a prepatch type things, which well bugs are bugs.

[Deleted]

@Stormspellz, healing was actually broken early Cataclysm. They tried to go for the "more time below 100%" and "Bigger HP pools" thing back then aswell. It lead to healers being borderline useless in PvP during the first season. They have to severely buff various healers to eventually get them up to speed. So he's completely and utterly wrong and likely terrible.

Just now played some skirmish 2v2 and some random BGs. (Yeah, not a good gauging point) but as enhancer I can still kill many healers with decent proccs solo. Playing with a windwalker we simply destroyed healers in what felt like seconds. Rolled right over them in many cases so not idea what people are crying about.

[TheRabidDeer]

We're talking about the hotfix changes of 09/21/16, which went live right away. Nice try though.

5-10% more intellect and some classes taking more damage than before means healers are unkillable? Can't wait to see after the hotfixes after reset then!

[GrumpyJester]

5-10% more intellect and some classes taking more damage than before means healers are unkillable? Can't wait to see after the hotfixes after reset then!

Plus all DPS classes doing -10% damage. And yeah, that's all it took, apparently.


I can see how healers needed this buff/nerf for Arena's though. It's just annoying how BG fights drag on now.


Perhaps the real problem is in healer mana-regen. Why not greatly cut this down in PvP? It could take the place of 'dampening' in Arena's, and in (unrated) BGs it would prevent fights without any progress.

[Elisha]

Plus all DPS classes doing -10% damage. And yeah, that's all it took, apparently.

You mean to avoid of killing things in 10 sek? To extend the range to 20 sek. That burst was crazy!

It's just annoying how BG fights drag on now.

No1 cares about BG. Dude thats something like practice. You want to play WOW PVP? Go into the arena and play 3s.

Perhaps the real problem is in healer mana-regen. Why not greatly cut this down in PvP? It could take the place of 'dampening' in Arena's, and in (unrated) BGs it would prevent fights without any progress.

Spamming heals in BG's would OOM's me (disc) in a few minutes.

[Ultima]

If they went back to mop style healer survivability they need to bring back high cost heals of wrath and the tbc/vanilla ms debuffs. As for dps the need to drastically bring back dr on stuns, give healers a disarm ability/spell (example, holy plds can have a "flash" that disarms a target for 4 secs, a resto shaman can have a "tremor totem" that shakes the ground to disarm targets).

You may not have noticed as the matches clearly aren't lasting that long (guess why!), but mana is a lot tighter than it's been for awhile. I believe you mean high cost of early Cata? It's not dissimilar to that. Healers run out of steam. Example; Disc/Ret/Arms -vs- Fire/Destro(?)/Disc. After a time, before the timers kicked in, their Disc was oom and I was trying to run as efficiently as possible between decent CC usage.

I'm glad MS is gone, it was a balance issue for the designers and Arms has mostly been a great spec regardless of it.

[Saberstrike]

Alright, we've just come down to sniping and sarcasm now.

So, in an attempt to get this back to productive discussion:
@ShiyoKozuki @Saberstrike @Hexme

Mind sharing your vision of PvP Arena/RBGs with us? I'm honestly curious what you expect in an Arena where the set up of 2 DPS/ 1 Healer can work if one DPS can take down the Healer without aid.

Was there a previous Season where your vision was met?

Yeah, season 7 war perfect. The shadowmourne one. When every class was viable and healers ran OOM relatively fast.

My vision of PvP? All damage reduced by 40-60%, all healing reduced by 60%, mana regeneration frozen for healers during PvP combat, healer mobility reduced (no transcendence & longer roll recharge for monks, 20s cooldown on shapeshifting for druids & displacer beast removed, paladin freedom cannot be cast on self, ghost wolf removed from resto). This will also require things like enhance purge and rogue / mage / wlock CC to be hit hard to balance things out and avoid a second MoP.

^ In this version of pvp smart positionning from the start and better management of one's kit will separate skilled players / comps further from those who just abuse stupid pillar-humping, endless mana, or stupid design (purge purge purge / rogue + mage CC, as an example) to win.

I'd also make cloth / leather take more damage to make those classes have an actual opportunity cost, because right now the aforementioned mages, ferals / balance, rogues and to a degree shamans are too damn tanky for the amount of kit they bring to the table.

[shaunika123]

So healers should be able to be destroyed by 1 player because people are too stupid to target the healer? Ya, no that totally makes sense. Find a friend who's a melee class (really any melee at this point), go into BG's with him, both attack the healer, kill them in 5 seconds, collect honor.

well in the heyday of wow pvp (TBC/wrath) you could 1v1 healers AND healers could 1v1 you

that was such a better state in the game.

mana bars mattered, health bars mattered now all that matters are cooldowns

[Himora]

Really? It's like a night and day difference to me. Had a big brawl at the Lumber Mill where I just got bored, because nobody was dying on either side for minutes...

dunno about that, my full moon surge burst often 1 shots healers (except hpala) , leave me unharmed for a few seconds & you'll need atleast 6 healers to try mitigate my damage output.. which is disheartening, healers SHOULD NOT BE 1 SHOTTED.

[Saberstrike]

^ That's not a healer problem, that's a moonkin problem. Just like "Well I can die to druids / rogues if they get to sit on me for 30 seconds" isnt a healer problem.

[Elisha]

My vision of PvP? All damage reduced by 40-60%, all healing reduced by 60%, mana regeneration frozen for healers during PvP combat, healer mobility reduced (no transcendence & longer roll recharge for monks, 20s cooldown on shapeshifting for druids & displacer beast removed, paladin freedom cannot be cast on self, ghost wolf removed from resto). This will also require things like enhance purge and rogue / mage / wlock CC to be hit hard to balance things out and avoid a second MoP.

What about to /random 100?
Thats the most stupid thing I've ever read.

[callipygoustp]

After the recent hotfix, we're right back where we started. Healers don't die. Fights drag on forever.

Played three games. Won two. Still didn't enjoy them one bit. Healers taunting me with emotes as I pointlessly try to have any lasting impact on their health or mana bars...egh. So quickly everything went back to crap.

Curious: 2v2, 3v3, 5v5? Rating level?
If its 2v2, yeah, resilient healers in 2v2 suck. I used to play my resto druid in 2s....... snooze fest when coming against another good war/druid or pali/druid team.

[Saberstrike]

What about to /random 100?
Thats the most stupid thing I've ever read.

/random 100 is exactly whats happening now though, if you think reducing burst dmg / healing will make it more random then I'm sorry but you're the reason we can't have nice things.

[Elisha]

/random 100 is exactly whats happening now though, if you think reducing burst dmg / healing will make it more random then I'm sorry but you're the reason we can't have nice things.

Burst is pressing Buttons, Procs are random!

Reducing healing in the same level like reducing damage and life is ok, but won't change anything. You have burst to kill shit while heal is cc't (as usally healer died at last (thats the point)).

If you use CD's while healer is cc't and target has no defencive the target will die. Thats the gameplay. Force enemy CD's while saving yours until you are in the better spot to get the kill. This is called tactics. You now? What you want is a target dummy (called healer) without ability to escape and keep themself alive. Thats no fun, thats no skilled, thats just stupid random 100. No1 would play that shit (in WoW). Thats tripple DD vs tripple DD brainless zerk which is fun in Overlord (for 2 hours) but not in WoW

[denisgsv]

but those buff's arent even live or i'm mistaken ?

[Saberstrike]

Burst is pressing Buttons, Procs are random!

Reducing healing in the same level like reducing damage and life is ok, but won't change anything. You have burst to kill shit while heal is cc't (as usally healer died at last (thats the point)).

If you use CD's while healer is cc't and target has no defencive the target will die. Thats the gameplay. Force enemy CD's while saving yours until you are in the better spot to get the kill. This is called tactics. You now? What you want is a target dummy (called healer) without ability to escape and keep themself alive. Thats no fun, thats no skilled, thats just stupid random 100. No1 would play that shit (in WoW). Thats tripple DD vs tripple DD brainless zerk which is fun in Overlord (for 2 hours) but not in WoW

Not every class / comp has CC up the ass, though. I'm a DK-main, and most of my friends are demon hunters / paladins. We don't exactly have much in ways of locking you down for a stupid enough amount of time to kill something. And as you've mentioned -- the only 'allegedly skilled' way to counter healers is to stop them from playing long enough for you to be able to kill something. That's not skill. That's reducing 3v3 to 3v2. And if a 3v3 drags on forever when A THIRD OF THE TEAM isn't taken out of the equation every 20 seconds then I do think that speaks volumes of that there's a problem.

May as well take out the middle man and replace 'cc' with 'death', no? Faster games = less chances to screw up = more 'individual skill' involved when you can't just drag things forever. In my opinion, at least.

[Deleted]

A lot of these responses seem to be from BG players who are sad they can't zerg down a DPS while 2 healers sit free casting heals. This game isn't balanced around Random BGs or even Rated it's balanced around 3's as that's the tournament format. Don't like it? Go PvP in another game.

In 3's you need to be CCing, interrupting and swapping constantly as well as keeping track of your teams defensive and offensive CD's in addition to the enemy teams CDs, if you pump all your DPS CDs into a MW with his bubble up, of course you aren't going to kill him. When they use defensive CD's you immediately CC him and swap on his DPS. You quickly find that the healer can't keep up. If this concept is too much for you then you need to git gud.

Although I agree Rshaman and MW monks healing output is insane.

[Elisha]

Not every class / comp has CC up the ass, though. I'm a DK-main, and most of my friends are demon hunters / paladins. We don't exactly have much in ways of locking you down for a stupid enough amount of time to kill something. And as you've mentioned -- the only 'allegedly skilled' way to counter healers is to stop them from playing long enough for you to be able to kill something. That's not skill. That's reducing 3v3 to 3v2. And if a 3v3 drags on forever when A THIRD OF THE TEAM isn't taken out of the equation every 20 seconds then I do think that speaks volumes of that there's a problem.

May as well take out the middle man and replace 'cc' with 'death', no? Faster games = less chances to screw up = more 'individual skill' involved when you can't just drag things forever. In my opinion, at least.

Ahh we come closer. No1 said that every class works with every class, because of this there pointed out some vailable combs. Depending on how they work together (Damage|Burst|Support|CC|..). Because of this most comps are Melee, Range, Heal. Zerk cleaves are mostly a result of inbalancing (in my mind).
If you play a melee cleave with no or low cc, like yours, you need a healer who can CC. A Resto Druid for example. But bad news Heal Druids are very weak these days, because of low heals and because they getting zerked to easy.

[Saberstrike]

So by that same logic certain classes that have higher cc / higher output and resilience against it are overpowered by design as they fit into more comps (rogue / mage / mw as an example). Which is why there's a lot of people mad at the post-cataclysm state of healers as immortal beings that need to be cc'd for an unreasonable amount of time for things to die, combined with ridiculous DPS to abuse that healer downtime to kill someone.

This means that because healing / cc is so powerful that certain classes like DH / DK / Warrior that lack CC need to do ridiculous amount of damage to compete, which we can all agree is not good for the game in the long run. Nerfing healers is the first necessary step towards fixing stupid burst and annoying CC.

It's not because I want you guys to be insta-gibbed the moment I look at you. It's because I see healers (or more specifically core design philosophy behind them) as a core problem that causes most of the annoying issues with wow pvp ever since mana stopped being a real thing in cata.