Dear Blizzard - A few comments on your PvE balance pass, Warrior PoV

[MightyCrixus]

It doesn't have good multi target potential. Take into account that Archi never plays Arms, he'd happily sit on the bottom of the damage meters dragging his raid down just to play Fury. So when he says thing like this he says it out of a bias and also lack of experience. We all know how shit Arms AOE really is, of course someone not playing it will say "ooh look at these cooldowns you can stack, great AOE"..

When as we all know the Arms AOE is really quite pathetic, even a full cooldown burst cannot compete with classes that do burst AOE well (as in you could blow Avatar, Battle Cry, Warbreaker, Potion, Bladestorm and do less than 1/2 of another class), and once that burst is over you've gimped your actually good single target and you have another 1.5mins minimum (while saving cooldowns, gimping ST) before you can do that AOE again, as the sustained AOE is most cases lower than the single target.

100% this. I've blown all my cd's with bladestorm in mobs of 5-6 in a raid and there i was, sitting halfway down the meters after blowing everything you possibly can, not mention that the adds were high hp so i eventually dropped to the bottom of the barrel because arms aoe is a joke unless you can expect your bladestorm to kill the targets. Also agree with the comment about Archi, all you have to do is look at the hot fixes tweet by warcraft devs to see his care less attitude about arms "needing the etw nerf" without mentioning buffing tact or compensating for the garbage gameplay we will have.

[sjsctt]

I don't normally post in 'the sky is falling posts', but...

I'm investing in a good helmet, because the roof is about to rain down.

[Deleted]

Now concerning Arms balance specifically, I'll reiterate: it's single target was inordinately too high, and extraordinary single target is not an excuse for low multi-target. I'll also point out that Arms does have multi-target potential, albeit on a long cooldown, and some of the best 2-target cleave in the game.

How does arms have good cleave???????Please don't post something you clearly lack knowledge about it. You can not go sweeping strikes with focussed rage talent you just can't, you be rage starved all day long and end up doing less damage then just doing your normal single target spec.

The only viable spec for arms for cleave fights is still normal single target spec with dauntless, that says it all about how garbage arms cleave is.....

[Artunias]

How does arms have good cleave???????Please don't post something you clearly lack knowledge about it. You can not go sweeping strikes with focussed rage talent you just can't, you be rage starved all day long and end up doing less damage then just doing your normal single target spec.

The only viable spec for arms is focused rage with dauntless talents and anger management even for two/three target cleave pre nerf, that says it all about how shit arms cleave is.

This is not true at all. Losing dauntless certainly limits your ability to hit buttons that aren't FR/MS/CS, but in a two target cleave situation that's all that matters. Now sure, the range on Sweeping makes it rather impractical to use currently in a lot of situations. I still think that will be adjusted to a more reasonable range.

It's 2-3 target cleave is quite good, and if you have the gloves dropping dauntless hardly means much at all.

Arms AoE is pretty lacking, but the 2-3 target cleave is absolutely there. The spec is slightly plagued by RNG, but that's there no matter what you're doing or what spec you're playing.

[cFortyfive]

This is not true at all. Losing dauntless certainly limits your ability to hit buttons that aren't FR/MS/CS, but in a two target cleave situation that's all that matters. Now sure, the range on Sweeping makes it rather impractical to use currently in a lot of situations. I still think that will be adjusted to a more reasonable range.

How much haste and crit are you running with ? I run out of rage for fr on a very regular basis using ss.

[Artunias]

How much haste and crit are you running with ? I run out of rage for fr on a very regular basis using ss.

I have 15% crit and 23% haste. Some small fluctuations there shouldn't matter much. You will occasionally rage starve without the gloves, and especially if you eat a full 30 seconds of no CS procs. But that will happen even with Dauntless.

I think it's easy to hit slam/ww at higher rage levels and not realize it's fucking you until it's too late when you don't have dauntless. It makes the spec extremely, extremely tight on resources and you do need to "heroic charge" occasionally. When you battle cry and get up to almost max rage for me it's really easy to want to hit slam a time or two, because you're used to do that with the dauntless build, but it can really screw you without Dauntless.

[cFortyfive]

I have 15% crit and 23% haste. Some small fluctuations there shouldn't matter much.

well that's really a lot. How much mastery is left ? The gloves aren't exactly easily accessible.

[Deleted]

There are no proper cleave bosses in the EN so far to test it on but on the 2 target dummy I do close to same dmg using single target spec versus sweeping strikes and ye execute phase maybe increase it by a little but still not noticeable difference for sure so I don't know where you getting your numbers from.

[Maletalana]

(even Ursoc demands cleave/AoE).

Sorry, real quick, why would Ursoc need cleave? Its only ever 1 unit to attack? Genuinely curious and looking to learn why you said this bit. Got Ursoc down yesterday, normal.

[sjsctt]

well that's really a lot. How much mastery is left ?

Who cares? It is worth dumping mastery for haste untiol ~15%. I know you'll argue, but you can sim it and see that.

[cFortyfive]

Who cares? It is worth dumping mastery for haste untiol ~15%. I know you'll argue, but you can sim it and see that.

I have around 14 but not 23 and I don't have as much crit left. Not sure what you want.

Sorry, real quick, why would Ursoc need cleave? Its only ever 1 unit to attack? Genuinely curious and looking to learn why you said this bit. Got Ursoc down yesterday, normal.

The voidzones he leaves spawn little ursocs.

[Deleted]

Yes because I am gonna rely on legendary gloves dropping to actually do good cleave... I have 4 lvl 110, not one legendary on them . Blizzard please.

[Artunias]

well that's really a lot. How much mastery is left ?

My gear set is not ideal for arms, and you should be aiming for that haste breakpoint anyway.

Either way, let's be generous and say I have 10% more haste and crit than you do, that's not going to impact resource generation very much. Heroic Charging is a whole heck of a lot of rage, and while I think it's stupid if you aren't using then yeah you're going to have rage problems sometimes.

[cFortyfive]

Either way, let's be generous and say I have 10% more haste and crit than you do, that's not going to impact resource generation very much. Heroic Charging is a whole heck of a lot of rage, and while I think it's stupid if you aren't using then yeah you're going to have rage problems sometimes.

I have most of my ss experience from mythic+ where I usually spec shockwave for anything past 6 so there isn't much more heroic charging going on. That said I don't think it would make a major difference but well obviously our experiences are quite different there.
Probably doesn't matter anyways given the severity of the nerf.

[Deleted]

I really hate focused rage build because one of reason I play warrior is for executes, I love executing mobs but with FR build you kind of limited when you will actually be executing (During battle cry spam) for eg as MS just stronger then execute with FR so I really dislike this play style but hey, I am hardcore raider and I play the spec that is best and that is fine but arms has clear disadvantages, they have extremely poor sustain aoe, probable one of the worst in the game, they have poor cleave, I tested it numerous of times, sweeping strikes is just slight buff to your cleave damage and poor durability compared to other melee, so the question is why do you bring arms warrior to raid?

If you nerf a spec, at least buff other under performing talents/abilities so we are not stuck in a dog house again. Redesign mortal combo, buff trauma, slam, OS and arms is fun again.....

[Maletalana]

I have around 14 but not 23 and I don't have as much crit left. Not sure what you want.

The voidzones he leaves spawn little ursocs.

Oh shoot that makes perfect sense lmao, I need to move on to heroic content and mythic when its out!
Thanks!

[globezorz]

Sorry, real quick, why would Ursoc need cleave? Its only ever 1 unit to attack? Genuinely curious and looking to learn why you said this bit. Got Ursoc down yesterday, normal.

on mythic its a perma cleave fight

[Kelato]

I really hate focused rage build because one of reason I play warrior is for executes, I love executing mobs but with FR build you kind of limited when you will actually be executing (During battle cry spam) for eg as MS just stronger then execute with FR so I really dislike this play style but hey, I am hardcore raider and I play the spec that is best and that is fine but arms has clear disadvantages, they have extremely poor sustain aoe, probable one of the worst in the game, they have poor cleave, I tested it numerous of times, sweeping strikes is just slight buff to your cleave damage and poor durability compared to other melee, so the question is why do you bring arms warrior to raid?

If you nerf a spec, at least buff other under performing talents/abilities so we are not stuck in a dog house again. Redesign mortal combo, buff trauma, slam, OS and arms is fun again.....

Execute was > MS since FS has been nerfed to 40%.

[Maletalana]

glovezorz

Ohhh got it, thanks!

[Tyrosus]

Dear Blizzard,

At this point I can't justify bringing a Warrior (myself) to our Top20 Mythic Progression anymore. Our niche dps (single target) was rightfully brought down, but by far too much and at the cost of already shaky gameplay (tactitian resets). We're lackluster in pratical appliance on most encounters in Emerald Nightmare Mythic, and are quickly outmatched once AoE/burst cleave is introduced on an encounter - or by one of many melee punishing mechanics leading to minor/massive downtime.
The nerf did not compensate in these areas, nor did it take into account that there are no true Single Target fights in Mythic (even Ursoc demands cleave/AoE). Somehow though, Single Target SIMs (performed by a robot in near uptimum conditions) seems to be the determining factor at play in your tuning pass (Arms PoV), and not the grand total in diverse encounters, mechanics and class requirements.

Ultimately, I'd bring myself only because of my capacity as a raid leader and tactician. My class is no longer desired (nor is my Havoc, Enhance and Unholy - who I've also prepared based on beta test raids/gameplay) and I find myself too demotivated to compete as a guild, without the ability to compete as an individual.
On a personal level (to top it all of) trinkets, legendaries and gear have all eluded me, despite insane levels of preparation, loot funneling split raids and enormous time spend ingame. I guess that is what the element of RNG does to the unfortunate bell-curve outliers.

It's not too late to realise that the change in the PvE pass was excessive, given the grand scheme of things, and revert/half-way revert/alternate changes, so that you're not left with loyal and enthusiastic, yet discouraged and demotivated players.

Sincerely yours,

Falken

Warrior and Raid Leader
Ðanish Terrace, EU, Sylvanas.

I was actually struggling with the same thing. Complete and utter demotivation to continue playing the game. My arms warrior that I've spent every minute preparing for mythics, had loot thrown at me in hopes that I'd be able to bring the damages, and fruitlessly attempted to get a legendary will now be useless. My DH will now be as useless as that, as well. I'm left dead in the water, and the only choice is to, by some miracle, get another competitive class to 110 and gear it in a record amount of time. They said time and time again they wouldn't over-nerf to devalue people's time put into the game, where's that cautionary hand now? Where are the same people that claimed we could grind with reckless abandon - as their nerfs and tuning wouldn't upset the hierarchy of classes (DPS wise)?
I feel betrayed, and devastated. I'll be brought to raid three months after clears just as a "hey we're sorry blizzard took a dump on you."
Unlike you, I hold no prevalent spot in the guild. I don't organize anything, I'm not a raid leader and I'm not some kind of savant at the class. I'm expendable, and my spot will be filled by probably another mage that can do my job better.
Thanks, Blizzard.