What would you guys think of this? (More alternatives to current nerfs)

[Revion]

I also posted this over on the main forums, do any of you think that changes like this would be viable? If not what would you suggest to change?

I feel that the changes that Blizzard has proposed are a little bit too excessive and destroy the spirit of the demon hunter. So I came up with a few simple solutions that will still greatly nerf our AoE potential while keeping our single target more than viable.

Proposed changes
Nerfs
• Reduce Fury of the Illidari by 20% (as proposed)
• Change Fel Mastery to 50% increased damage on primary target and 25% increased damage on concurrent targets.
• Reduce Talent Bloodlet to 100% (as proposed)
• Reduce Balanced Blades talent to 4% per enemy

Things we should leave alone
• Throw Glaive
• Eye Beams
• Fel Barrage

Buffs
• Increase Felblades damage by changing the damage type to chaos.
• Increase Chaos Blades duration to 15 seconds.

Now the purpose behind these changes are to curb our ability to dominate AoE and Cleave boss situations while increasing the viability of, and attraction towards picking single target talents. With these changes we will have clear talents that are still viable in all situations without being overtuned. The changes to Bloodlet and Felblade will be key and demonstrate that the purpose of these changes are to create situations where our single target is still strong but where aoe is stronger when the ability to cleave and cultivate multiple targets with Bloodlet still exists without it being nerfed into the ground.

In these changes AoE is reduced in such a way that demon hunters can no longer pop all of our AoE cooldowns and just delete a pack of trash. Abilities that are key in certain playstyles such as Throw Glaive are kept untouched to preserve the fast paced, attractive momentum play style.

Furthermore, these changes will give the mastery stat more weight in single target encounters and keeps the developers from having to take into account major changes to Chaos Strike itself.

I know these aren’t the changes that everyone wants, and the nerfs far outweigh the buffs. But I think that these changes will reduce our overall aoe and cleave potential while leaving our single target around where it is right now.

I've done some very basic napkin math and nothing seems grossly underpowered or overpowered.

[Jacpierre]

See here is the problem with this. Demon Hunters are still wiping the floor with over half of the dps specs out there, probably more. You can be beaten single target by fire mage, arms, outlaw, maybe a feral or ret here and there. You want them to buff you before fixing the rest of specs? I understand the desire to have your class/spec be competitive, but this is a bit of a first world problem.

[Svisalith]

You can be beaten single target by fire mage, arms, outlaw, maybe a feral or ret here and there.

DH performed below average on Ursoc for live servers and is beaten by almost every class (10-11 of them) with the proposed hotfixes in play. The only classes that low quite clearly have something wrong with them (see shadow priest..) - It's not just the very notable nerf to DH ST that was already average, several of the classes that were on the lower end (or even previously equal to havoc!) got buffed significantly as well.

I'm happy to see AOE brought down, especially via throw glaive nerfs and tweaks that will make more talents usable - just need some ST fixes to bring the damage back to average or even slightly below average instead of being trash.

DH does get a lot of attention because of the AOE numbers but the ST has never been amazing or even good, it does not deserve this

[Eats Compost]

For what it's worth, an easier way of balancing Fel Mastery for single target and AoE is to make the extra 50% damage spread evenly on all targets hit. Making it do more damage to one target and less damage to subsequent targets can be a bit messy, because the only way of determining the "primary target" is by looking at which one got hit first. Note that I'm talking specifically about the Fel Mastery bonus damage - Fel Rush damage would still work as regular AoE.

If that leaves it too weak for AoE, make that 50% go up by 10% per target hit or something. That still makes it a very modest increase in AoE situations, but gives the talent some kind of scaling for those situations without being nuts.

Also, one way to address burst AoE is to do something about the crazy gold trait for Fury of the Illidari. It uses a "spread damage evenly" mechanic, but because that damage is based off the amount of damage done anyway, it ends up being pretty much a flat 60% damage increase no matter how many targets you have. If it were based on the highest amount of damage taken by a single target, the trait would be just as strong in single-target but no longer a crazy increase in AoE situations.

[Revion]

See here is the problem with this. Demon Hunters are still wiping the floor with over half of the dps specs out there, probably more. You can be beaten single target by fire mage, arms, outlaw, maybe a feral or ret here and there. You want them to buff you before fixing the rest of specs? I understand the desire to have your class/spec be competitive, but this is a bit of a first world problem.

I don't see how you can see this as anything but a nerf... I'm not really asking for any kind of amazing buffs. Really just make fel blades chaos damage and dont nerf glaive throw. everything is is still more or less getting the exact same nerfs as blizzard already wants.

[Shirofune]

How about leaving Bloodlet alone? Is the only thing that makes our ST somewhat reliable.

Proposed changes:

- FotI. Reduced damage by 20% when more than 3 targets are hit by it.
- Bloodlet. Each ricochet of Throw Glaive reduces the Bloodlet damage. Main target: 200%. Second target: 150%. Third target: 100%.
- Balanced blades: 10 -> 5%
- Fel Rush damage reduced by 20% to secondary targets.

And that's it pretty much.

[Firefly]

Well, I must say most of the nerfs are ok-ish and justified (Fel Mastery especially) but what strikes me as over the top is the double dip nerf to Bloodlet, effectively reducing the total damage of the TG/BL by more than 50%...

Also I would rather see FotI damage reduced to secondary targets only, but even with 20% less damage it will still be strong.

I think the way they will nerf Bloodlet will change before the nerf goes live, or maybe shortly after.

We will see. Oh the other hand, it wouldn't be the first time they nerfed a mildly OP class to the ground and keep it there for an entire expansion instead of doing some slight retuning....

[Fathr]

Well, I must say most of the nerfs are ok-ish and justified (Fel Mastery especially) but what strikes me as over the top is the double dip nerf to Bloodlet, effectively reducing the total damage of the TG/BL by more than 50%...

Also I would rather see FotI damage reduced to secondary targets only, but even with 20% less damage it will still be strong.

I think the way they will nerf Bloodlet will change before the nerf goes live, or maybe shortly after.

We will see. Oh the other hand, it wouldn't be the first time they nerfed a mildly OP class to the ground and keep it there for an entire expansion instead of doing some slight retuning....

This! It's my problem with the nerf. We are well into a month of the game, and having only played DH (wasn't planning it, but it was so much fun that i forgot every other classes solely due to the DH's fast paced game which no other classes have) I am afraid that all my work is down the drain, having spent AP to get to lvl 20 is such a drag. So to see all of that work going down the drain is just mind numbing. And yeah it will go down the drain, if the DH ends up beign bottom of the barrel the whole of the expansion. Let's face it. The DH is/was extremely strong AOE wise, mostly due to him having so many AOE options in the first place, and only one ST attack. It needed toning I get it, but the DH is also squishy as hell and he does take some wildly dip HP wise when facing multiple mobs or bigger bad boys in confined places. But that is the class's destinction that I've loved: If you play a DH well you get rewarded with high momentum uptime, and a fast paced game time. If you dont play it well you'll end up not on top and pulling multiple mobs in stances due to bad timeing and facing. What ticks me the most is how Blizzard just doesnt tone it down a little, but instead kick you in the private parts, and probably leaves you there for months before giving you a bone. Now that is just sad.

[The Archmage]

I think that most of the proposed changes in this thread (expecially @Shirofune 's) will be taken into consideration after this general tone down has resolved itself.

The ST will be buffed to accomodate for this general nerf that, in my opinion, is targeted mainly at class fantasy: the fact that one of the most damaging abilities comes from A: a talent and B: a ranged ability on a melee dps class goes heavily against what it should be. Hence not only the reduction to Bloodlet but to Throw Glaive aswell.

I foresee buffs to Chaos Strike, Demon's Bite and some ST talent (such as Felblade, that is wildly appreciated by the community but so far marked as "unviable" due to Bllodlet)

[Deleted]

To be completely honest.. Bloodlet, HAD to be nerfed - we all know it.
A talent which is not only best at cleaving (which it's made for), also beats other ST talents in that row. That's wrong and bad design. I do think however that the current number of nerf to it is a bit too much, as it will lose some of its power, which we know - IS CLEAVING.

Alright, so how do we fix this? Leave be the other AoE nerfs, they're fine. Buff Felblade and FB. This way, we will have 3 talents for every situation - you could even count them as a whole specilization (fx. a Warlock has 3 specs, which excels in different areas) we have 1 dps spec, so we need the talents to be integrated.
Alright, so Felblade is going to be your go-to ST talent - perfect for a boss like Ursoc (where we are really struggling). Then - First Blood, good for a boss with occasionally + 4 adds, that needs to die fast (spiders on Elren fx. while still being middle of the pack on ST (because of First Blood single target big hit.)
And then.. Bloodlet, nerfed but enough so it will outshine the other two talents on a 2-3 target fight.

These changes are so freaking simple, that it worries me how they aren't able to see it...

Also, our 108 talent row is just embarrasing - it is a horrible row, without thinking how they work.. It was so good on beta.. The Chaos nova and eye beam, demonic spec was lovely, it was just too powerful (which is just a number change and its fine) the MotG has good synergy with Bloodlet - but Demon Reborn is just there... It HAD perfect synergy with Chaos Blades..
I mean, i think DH's had the best synergy for each talent "specilizations" in the game..

But yeah, this was my idea of how they could fix this comment please.

[Shirofune]

To be completely honest.. Bloodlet, HAD to be nerfed - we all know it.
A talent which is not only best at cleaving (which it's made for), also beats other ST talents in that row. That's wrong and bad design. I do think however that the current number of nerf to it is a bit too much, as it will lose some of its power, which we know - IS CLEAVING.

Alright, so how do we fix this? Leave be the other AoE nerfs, they're fine. Buff Felblade and FB. This way, we will have 3 talents for every situation - you could even count them as a whole specilization (fx. a Warlock has 3 specs, which excels in different areas) we have 1 dps spec, so we need the talents to be integrated.
Alright, so Felblade is going to be your go-to ST talent - perfect for a boss like Ursoc (where we are really struggling). Then - First Blood, good for a boss with occasionally + 4 adds, that needs to die fast (spiders on Elren fx. while still being middle of the pack on ST (because of First Blood single target big hit.)
And then.. Bloodlet, nerfed but enough so it will outshine the other two talents on a 2-3 target fight.

These changes are so freaking simple, that it worries me how they aren't able to see it...

Also, our 108 talent row is just embarrasing - it is a horrible row, without thinking how they work.. It was so good on beta.. The Chaos nova and eye beam, demonic spec was lovely, it was just too powerful (which is just a number change and its fine) the MotG has good synergy with Bloodlet - but Demon Reborn is just there... It HAD perfect synergy with Chaos Blades..
I mean, i think DH's had the best synergy for each talent "specilizations" in the game..

But yeah, this was my idea of how they could fix this comment please.

Just a comment about First Blood. As it currently stands, the only effect it has for AoE is the fury reduction for Blade Dance, which is not an issue to begin with. The ST bonus damage is meh, and if the talent is oriented towards AoE, its something that should go, imo.

Since we're losing Balanced Blades power almost 100% chance, I think First Blood should recover some of that lost power, since it would become the AoE go-to talent.

ST: Felblade (requires some hard buffing)
Cleave: Bloodlet + MotG
AoE: First Blood (requires hard buffing). Increases the damage of Blade dance by 3% per nearby enemy (with the 10% -> 5% nerf I suggested, this would leave Blade Dance to do 8% extra damage per nearby enemy. It's still a nerf, but barely noticeable IF you spec for it).

That's how I see it.

[Deleted]

Just a comment about First Blood. As it currently stands, the only effect it has for AoE is the fury reduction for Blade Dance, which is not an issue to begin with. The ST bonus damage is meh, and if the talent is oriented towards AoE, its something that should go, imo.

Since we're losing Balanced Blades power almost 100% chance, I think First Blood should recover some of that lost power, since it would become the AoE go-to talent.

ST: Felblade (requires some hard buffing)
Cleave: Bloodlet + MotG
AoE: First Blood (requires hard buffing). Increases the damage of Blade dance by 3% per nearby enemy (with the 10% -> 5% nerf I suggested, this would leave Blade Dance to do 8% extra damage per nearby enemy. It's still a nerf, but barely noticeable IF you spec for it).

That's how I see it.

Yeah that's kinda what i meant with First Blood, that it needed a buff aswell - didn't really put it in there but i think that it should have the balanced blade integrated into it yeah.

[Deleted]

So here is my suggestion to nerfs.

First of let me explain, dh needed aoe nerf yes, but so does outlaw,fire and ww monks, not touching them makes the point of this thread useless, i want the other specc of other classes to be on par or close atleast.


However lets get into it, most ppl forget that the issue is not often baseline abilities but its effected by some dps spec have greater artifact talents than others, for instance check ww monks active effect vs dh havoc, less cd on monk, and more damage output, and better scaling.

Stuff like this pisses me off ppl are tunnelvisioning on the balance only on baseline and talents while ignoring that there is a imbalance in artifact traits dh havoc artifact trait got plenty of utterly useless traits like chance on chaos nova to release a spirit(woopdie fucking doo)


But for the sake of keeping this simple lets get onward to the nerfs and what to do to solve it.

First bloodlet needed its nerf, however not without a compensation it should be a cleave ability therefore felblade should deal chaos damage and the rng reset should get removed to compensate between 5-8 sec.

Demon reborn talent and unleashed power should both be overlooked at since first of meta lasts for 30 sec that means who on earth uses eye beam during meta?

No one wich renders it complete useless. both of these needs to be changed to somthing useful to be intressting to pick up just like fel blade.


The problem we face is they are nerfing abilities that focusing on aoe/cleave but also effect our ST, but they forget to touch on many things that are an issue with dh, that is that there is not many useful talent to pick, thats why all dh:s runs with same shit for pve, and only diffrence ppl pick is chaos blades and nemesis for ST and pick momentum and fel barrage on adds/aoe fights.

Thats a fact and no one can ever argue against this.

the others are picked 24/7 becuse there is nothing better to pick becuse they are pvp/niche or survival picks, that wont either save you in a pve raid scenario where you fuck up and also you should not fuck up anyway.

So what is the point with these?

Eye beam has 1 min cd while casting it you cant hit or use other abilities, and it should get buffed as i saw that it should deal more dmg the less targets gets hit that means it should have a dmg and if there is 2 targets it deals more dmg and if there is 5 it deals even less but even distrubuted, so if there is just 1 boss it deals a lot more dmg towards 1 target only wich makes it a useful singel target spell.

Chaos cleave should be somthing else, adding somthing that increases ST dmg becuse fel rush are suppose to be about aoe but is used for ST also why are none of these talents focused on ST ?

Everything just screams cleave cleave cleave.


So how does blizzard solve this?

Well, nerf the the bloodlet, dont nerf glaive damage, fix fel blade.

and over time take a look at our dead talent and maybe nerf somthing else to keep them as a valid choice.

what blizzard are doing is just killing the ST of the class.

[Deleted]

Sure, I understand getting nerfed isn't fun but WTH. All the years, every expansion this come and goes. Classes getting nerfed and buffed here and there. Blizzard overdoing it so top is going to lower midish and so on and on. One thing I can't understand why all are crying sooo hard and talking about rerolling? We know this was going to happen. If you are a FOTM you better level them all!

[fent]

Sure, I understand getting nerfed isn't fun but WTH. All the years, every expansion this come and goes. Classes getting nerfed and buffed here and there. Blizzard overdoing it so top is going to lower midish and so on and on. One thing I can't understand why all are crying sooo hard and talking about rerolling? We know this was going to happen. If you are a FOTM you better level them all!

It has nothing to do with FotM, and people just don't seem to truly understand why DHs are bitching.

We aren't like Hunters, Rogues, Mages, Warlocks, Shamans, Druids, Death Knights, Warriors, etc. We don't have another DPS spec to fall back on (Paladins/Priests are in the same boat). Havoc is all we have. Prior to these nerfs, Havoc's AoE was absolutely insane. No one EVER denied that fact. Nearly everyone expected a nerf, and those who didn't were foolish. Outside of our AoE, Havoc was literally middle-of-the-pack on single target, and only slightly above middle ground on some fights. Looking at Warcraft logs alone, there isn't a single Havoc Demon Hunter in the top 200 for Ursoc, a pure single target fight. Our single target was pretty much right where it needed to be, outside of maybe reducing Bloodlet damage slightly, and buffing Fel Blade, to give us options in that tier. However, this is not the route Blizzard took...

For some reason, Blizzard gutted Throw Glaive AND Bloodlet. While this ability/talent combo had some effect on our AoE, it was by NO means massive (it only hits 3 targets MAX). The proposed nerfs that Blizzard posted effectively removed Bloodlet as a talent option, as in you would NEVER pick it again. This is how bad the nerf is. On top of that, Bloodlet was one of our largest single target damage sources. With the removal of Bloodlet, Throw Glaive is largely taken out of the rotation as well. With these reductions, and nothing given to compensate for them, our middle of the ground single target has taken a nose dive. While we are not at the very bottom, we are damn well close to it. This is a problem because the Havoc spec is the only DPS spec we can bring to the raid. While our AoE will still be good, what is the point in bringing Havoc to a raid for just their AoE, when a Fire Mage (or an Outlaw Rogue) does Havoc's AoE job AND does way better single target?

I can't speak as to why the developers thought these changes best, but to say the least it is quite head scratching. This isn't a case of our AoE being overpowered, nor is it a case about going from the top to the middle. This is a case of going form the middle, to the bottom.