The DH reign is now officially over

[Schizoide]

Outside of this, the DH is a new class that Blizzard is using to drive interest in their game... Somehow I doubt a company is going to sabotage their own cash cow by making DH non-viable for top end raiding guilds.

WW monks performed poorly throughout most of MoP. It can happen.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

Uh... the nerfs are really not that bad. They're just taking DH from the top and put it toward the mid-top.

The world is not falling. Breathe.

[fent]

They're just taking DH from the top and put it toward the mid-top.

This is not correct, at all. Please do more research on the topic.

[Vanyali]

Monks have 3 specs; DH have 2. The tanking spec is not that great either. Two mediocre specs(after nerf) is not a good way to turn around a game; which is what they are trying to do with Legion.

Besides, seems like Blizzard has already changed their minds on the DH nerfs, according to the latest blue posts.

Honestly, it feels like something that shouldn't have been announced until it was fully tested. Sounds like someone threw an idea at the wall and they ran too hard with it.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

This is not correct, at all. Please do more research on the topic.

It is. I play one. Level 110. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rentium/simple

[Deleted]

What reign lol? Have you seen WW Monks?

[fent]

It is. I play one. Level 110. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rentium/simple

As do I, and no offense, but I've done a good bit more than you as a Havoc DH (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...eidra/advanced). Aside from that, let me better explain why what you previously stated, is in fact, not the case...

To quote myself from the other thread:

We aren't like Hunters, Rogues, Mages, Warlocks, Shamans, Druids, Death Knights, Warriors, etc. We don't have another DPS spec to fall back on (Paladins/Priests are in the same boat). Havoc is all we have. Prior to these nerfs, Havoc's AoE was absolutely insane. No one EVER denied that fact. Nearly everyone expected a nerf, and those who didn't were foolish. Outside of our AoE, Havoc was literally middle-of-the-pack on single target, and only slightly above middle ground on some fights. Looking at Warcraft logs alone, there isn't a single Havoc Demon Hunter in the top 200 for Ursoc, a pure single target fight. Our single target was pretty much right where it needed to be, outside of maybe reducing Bloodlet damage slightly, and buffing Fel Blade, to give us options in that tier. However, this is not the route Blizzard took...

For some reason, Blizzard gutted Throw Glaive AND Bloodlet. While this ability/talent combo had some effect on our AoE, it was by NO means massive (it only hits 3 targets MAX). The proposed nerfs that Blizzard posted effectively removed Bloodlet as a talent option, as in you would NEVER pick it again. This is how bad the nerf is. On top of that, Bloodlet was one of our largest single target damage sources. With the removal of Bloodlet, Throw Glaive is largely taken out of the rotation as well. With these reductions, and nothing given to compensate for them, our middle of the ground single target has taken a nose dive. While we are not at the very bottom, we are damn well close to it. This is a problem because the Havoc spec is the only DPS spec we can bring to the raid. While our AoE will still be good, what is the point in bringing Havoc to a raid for just their AoE, when a Fire Mage (or an Outlaw Rogue) does Havoc's AoE job AND does way better single target?

I can't speak as to why the developers thought these changes best, but to say the least it is quite head scratching. This isn't a case of our AoE being overpowered, nor is it a case about going from the top to the middle. This is a case of going form the middle, to the bottom.

Just to back up some of the things I said in this post:

Ursoc 75th Percentile: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#boss=1841
Ursoc 95th Percentile: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...841&dataset=95
Top Ursoc Parses (find the first DH): https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/10#boss=1841

When you look at overall statistics, like these: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#, the results are skewed based on many of the encounters being very AoE heavy. Yes, DH AoE is/was god-tier, no one is denying that (Fire Mages, Marks Hunters, and WW Monks are roughly on the same level with our AoE, so keep that in mind). The problem lies in our already middle ground single target. With the way Blizzard chose to nerf our AoE, it butchered our middle ground single target.

While I don't like using SIMs, these are a pretty good representation of what Havoc would look like with the proposed changes: http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T19P.html. This puts us well below the average of many other classes, and we are given nothing in terms of compensation. With our AoE brought more in line, and our single target in a bad spot, why would you bring a Havoc DH to any content when a Fire Mage, Marks Hunter, or WW Monk can do the same AoE, do much better single target, and provide more utility?

[Shirofune]

It is. I play one. Level 110. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rentium/simple

You should raid. Not every content in the game are dungeons.

We all agreed our AoE burst is OP. That's not the case for ST, though.

[Saverem]

Looks like all the FoTM nerds are going to be rerolling. Good riddance.

[aGit]

Screw this... I'm going to switch over to my other dps spec.. oh, wait...

this here really is a problem, a lot of the classes have a choice with what spec to dps with. if one spec is shit, another one most likely is not. Havocs are havocs for life or reroll. So when the nerfbat hits really bad, it hurts even more.

[Schizoide]

Yep, this was a frequent topic when DHs were first announced as only two specs. It's a major reason why I would never main Havoc. Having played DK for so many years, it is incredibly common that one of the two DPS specs is complete garbage for multiple patches or even entire expansions.

The same happened to Shadow and Ret too, and they didn't have another DPS spec to switch to. Don't doubt for a minute that it will happen to Havoc at some point. Hopefully not tomorrow.

[Jacpierre]

WE WERE 10th IN RAIDS OVERALL.... this is horrible.

What does overall mean, afking on trash pulls? Gimme a break. DH is at the top for all fights.

[Sarange]

What does overall mean, afking on trash pulls? Gimme a break. DH is at the top for all fights.

Yeah try to look at actual fight logs.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

As do I, and no offense, but I've done a good bit more than you as a Havoc DH (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...eidra/advanced). Aside from that, let me better explain why what you previously stated, is in fact, not the case...

To quote myself from the other thread:



Just to back up some of the things I said in this post:

Ursoc 75th Percentile: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#boss=1841
Ursoc 95th Percentile: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...841&dataset=95
Top Ursoc Parses (find the first DH): https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/10#boss=1841

When you look at overall statistics, like these: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#, the results are skewed based on many of the encounters being very AoE heavy. Yes, DH AoE is/was god-tier, no one is denying that (Fire Mages, Marks Hunters, and WW Monks are roughly on the same level with our AoE, so keep that in mind). The problem lies in our already middle ground single target. With the way Blizzard chose to nerf our AoE, it butchered our middle ground single target.

While I don't like using SIMs, these are a pretty good representation of what Havoc would look like with the proposed changes: http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T19P.html. This puts us well below the average of many other classes, and we are given nothing in terms of compensation. With our AoE brought more in line, and our single target in a bad spot, why would you bring a Havoc DH to any content when a Fire Mage, Marks Hunter, or WW Monk can do the same AoE, do much better single target, and provide more utility?

That would be a question you should ask for several classes and not just Havoc. This is not a DH specific issue. Why bring a ret pala? Why bring an ELE SHAMAN? Why bring X?

If you're so keen on min-maxing, this time Blizzard prefered to penalize you by completely breaking your composition on the eve of the mythic race. I get that. We're not in WoD where you can chug a day of leveling and be done after a few catch-up run with guildies. AP is gated behind AK which also determine a good chunk of your artifact power.

But ultimately DH are still viable. In raids and in mythic dungeons. They might not be optimal, but definitely viable.

[fent]

What does overall mean, afking on trash pulls? Gimme a break. DH is at the top for all fights.

If by all fights you mean 2/7, then yes, they are top for all fights. (<- Sarcasm)

- - - Updated - - -

That would be a question you should ask for several classes and not just Havoc. This is not a DH specific issue. Why bring a ret pala? Why bring an ELE SHAMAN? Why bring X?

You are missing the point. Noticed how I said we were given nothing in terms of compensation? Ret, Ele, etc are all receiving buffs, putting them in very good spots. Havoc is not getting this treatment currently. They are getting the AoE nerf, and a side effect of this is huge ST loss.

You also failed to acknowledge my other question. Why bring a Havoc DH when at minimum, three other classes do their job much better?

[Jacpierre]

If by all fights you mean 2/7, then yes, they are top for all fights. (<- Sarcasm)

Man your first world problems must be so tough. Shadow priests rape 2 fights, arms/marksmen rape 2 fights, DH are rape 1/2 fights, and yet you are upset because...you can't be top in every single fight? Mage fit in there with some of those fights ,but only fire spec. meanwhile warlocks and shaman aren't around, rogue is barely around, same goes for druid and paladin. But yea, your'e right. Woah is the demon hunter. I mean clearly you should just do the most damage. You ARE the brand new class, and if Blizzard wants to keep those subs they better kiss your asses.

Also "at the top" doesn't mean 1st place. It means competitively in the top group of players. If you can all fight in the same raid, you are at the top. There was at least 1 dh at the top in all fights except ursoc and Xavius.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah try to look at actual fight logs.

I did, and I see demon hunters in the top 50 for all fights except Uroc and Xavius.

[Verothous]

I really people who just look at numbers and go oh, that class is king because they are on top for total damage during an encounter. The way blizzard designs encounters this just simply isn't the case. Do the adds need to die, sure. But usually they don't need to be deleted as quickly as possible. More times than not what matters is focusing down certain targets. For this DH is decent but by no means OP. Sure AoE needs to be toned down, but I only even agree with that because mythic+ is now a thing. If you drop DH single target like they are to bring the AoE and cleave more in line then you won't see good competent raiders happy with the class because they will be less desired. I have personally had to go into logs on specific fights and yell at people for fighting over AoEing adds down simply to pad meters. Guess what, we were having issue with boss damage not add control. Perfect example was Beastlord Darmac from BRF. Blizzard loves designing fights like this. Those trash mobs that came out needed to simply die before the next pack came out. You could not just delete them and several classes like Enhancement Shamans would actually gain single target dps out of them being up for 15 seconds or so. Even the spears only needed to be somewhat controlled. A couple of Shadow Priests could control those easily while gaining a massive single target dps increase on the boss. Stop just blindly looking at numbers and actually think about the situation and if those adds really needed to die as quickly as they did or if higher focused single target damage would have been better, because 9 times out of 10 the focused single target damage is whats needed.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

You are missing the point. Noticed how I said we were given nothing in terms of compensation? Ret, Ele, etc are all receiving buffs, putting them in very good spots. Havoc is not getting this treatment currently. They are getting the AoE nerf, and a side effect of this is huge ST loss.

You also failed to acknowledge my other question. Why bring a Havoc DH when at minimum, three other classes do their job much better?

I did not. As I've stated, DH is not the only class in the middle of the pack. If you want to min-max, then yes, DH may be excluded.

Ret pala received compensation, true, but Ele even without the buff remain in the bottom 3 DPS. So why bring one?

[Varlak]

I did not. As I've stated, DH is not the only class in the middle of the pack. If you want to min-max, then yes, DH may be excluded.

Ret pala received compensation, true, but Ele even without the buff remain in the bottom 3 DPS. So why bring one?

Firstly how do you justify a nerf to a class that is in the middle of the pack ?

Second, even if its not the best argument shm can still go enh dps or resto healing. DH could only tank and they arent in the top 3 either.

Third who ever said ele shouldnt get buffed ?

[Schizoide]

Firstly how do you justify a nerf to a class that is in the middle of the pack ?

There is no justification for the single-target nerfs. They were pulled back a bit, but are still going through. It's a bummer.

They could have simply reduced Throw Glaive damage to secondary targets by 50%, that would have done it nicely.