His rebirth will be the story of your redemption.

[Aucald]

I wouldn't say Xe'ra is entirely without a point, either. Both in-game and externally speaking we (as players) are pretty easy to game - offer us loot and we'll burn down nearly any structure or kill any powerful entity to get a chance to roll for their belongings over their still-warm corpse. But that aside I think a lot of what Xe'ra is saying flies in the face of what both A'dal and Xi'ri were exhorting us to do back in TBC.

This, to me, opens up an entirely different supposition - that there are factions *within* the Naaru themselves, set to different goals and with their own agendas. I get the feeling that Xe'ra itself is something of a maverick, if not an out and out exile from the other Naaru. It seems to believe it knows better or different from its fellow Naaru, and where A'dal and Xi'ri were conducting a war on Illidan and his holdings in Outland Xe'ra is on his side or a believer in his "great destiny." I'm of a mind that neither camp truly knows the truth, and the final outcome will be somewhat different from what we're being led to believe (or that Illidan's "great destiny" will unfold in a way we don't expect).

[Aeluron Lightsong]

It's not the 'we messed up' angle but the whitewashing of Illidan in the quest chain and the retcons making it ham fisted years after the fact. This annoys me, but for example us helping unleash the sha I don't mind becausebit feels like a natural part of the story.

More or less this. The Sha, we didn't technically know when landing there and how the Sha work, well it makes sense. The whole "ILLIDAN WAS A VICTIM ALL ALONG."

Well....it's dumb..assuming Xe'ra's speeches aren't false and Xe'ra isn't who she says she is.
@Aucald: I'm sure it will develop into something we don't expect but...the start of it is....well not the best way to start.

[KaPe]

It's just comical how pissed off people get at being told they did something wrong in a video game.

I'm sure you never get invested into anything fictional, be it game, movie or a book. Cold, hard facts only, vulcan.

[Maletalana]

Playing a demon hunter, I feel totally connected with and pro- Illidan. That makes sense, my title upon character creation is "Illidari" for crying out loud. If I were to seriously RP as a DH then, I would feel, yeah, everything Illidan did was right and good. Fuck over Outland and be the bad guy? Sure, sounds good, I'm Illidari. But now that DHs are part of the general population, I almost feel weird standing alongside warlocks and mages and druids and shaman that assaulted BT back in the day.. Theoretically, if we had had different timing on doing Illidan's mission he sent us on for Sargerite Keystone (when you make a new toon), such that we arrived slightly earlier or later than when we actually got back, Maiev either would not have been there to capture us, or we would have been in the fight AGAINST players fighting Illidan in BT. I understand what they have done with Maiev forgiving us and brining us into the fight, but DHs are really the only ones to ever hold any good feelings toward Illidan.

All other classes absolutely shouldn't be pro Illidan. If you were, youd be a demon hunter. (excuse the fact that the race restriction has relevance in this argument).

I need to see the conclusion of this quest line for myself, but, and even as a demon hunter, why is Illidan being brought back with this character arc? It feels like how they keep re-using Jaina and Sylvanas for more and more character development, despite the fact that these characters' arcs were -arguably- "finished" after the warcraft III campaigns.

More and more I feel that some new Warcraft storylines and lore are overlapping and overlapping, to the point that it is becoming contradictory in some lights.

This isn't a damn soap opera.

[Deleted]

I think the way it was told in the Illidan novel was quite good. Illidan wasn't whitewashed, he still did awful things and sometimes even wondered about them himself and if there wasn't another way. But he always came to the conclusion that there wasn't. Sometimes he'd know in hindsight that his personal faults got the better of him. But I think he was right in one thing: he couldn't have explained because we would not have believed him or even if we had believed him, we'd still have insisted that his dealings with the demons he he controlled, siphoning souls in Auchindoun and all the truly horrible things he was going to do he must not do. The one person Akama for example told about Illidans plans and his vision was Maiev and she said it was all lies and he is still working for the Legion. And she told that to everyone she talked to.
So I don't see him having much choice about us at least. He could have explained his plans better to the leaders of his army, but even that may have proved fatal in the end, bevause then Kael would have known exactly what he planned. And in the novel to me it seemed that Kael fell to the Legion right at the beginning, when Kil Jaeden confronted them and looked into their minds. It wasn't outright stated, but it was hinted and if that was the case as Illidan suspected, he could not have told his Lieutenants anything more than he did.

So my own opinion is this: Illidan did horrible things. He was quite a bit of a douche for much of his life and from our perspective we were right in going after him. He even sees this himself, he knows why we do this and that we probably see no other choice. In the end he only tries to set his plan for the attack on Argus in motion and does not plan for Akamas plot. Akama and Maiev are the ones that foil his plans.
But through all of this, even though he knows noone (but maybe some of his Demonhunters) understands what he is trying to accomplish, he keeps his mind on his one goal. He hopes maybe one day we will see that he wasn't a betrayer after all, but he doesn't expect it. He doesn't try to 'show us all'. This is important I think, because the 'I'm gonna show them all!'-mindset was usually what made the real villains out of former heroes, it's just too tempting to accept an offer from a higher power after that thought has taken hold in your mind.
So.. I don't think we need to redeem ourselves because we killed Illidan. Most of us didn't hate him, Akama and Maiev were the only ones who did with not little obsession in their minds.
I don't know about Xe'ra and why it says we have to redeem ourselves for this specific thing. We may have some need of redemption for a great many things, but this .. hm.

But before that, in the earlier stages of the questline, I did not think it was showing us how 'good' Illidan was, only that he did what we already knew he did, but for different reasons than we thought. And even though he was feeling slighted he didn't give it up and in the end always came round to doing the right thing (from his perspective) for his one goal, even though he was mad at the world, at Cenarius at everyone who didn't see things his way. He didn't care about that in Illidan anymore, but he did care before. So he made some 'bad' choices, but ultimately he always came around again. Which in itself is quite an accomplishment, regarding all the other people who felt slighted and misunderstood before in Azeroth's history.

[DesoPL]

Ok i finished yesterday first part of Illidan quests? Probably more will come after 7.1 when lady Xe'Ra will finaly ready to hunt the hunted.

But the question is, if isin't Xe'Ra manipulate on us?

[Fascizio]

But the question is, if isin't Xe'Ra manipulate on us?

I very much think it is a manipulation, and right now I'm leaning to Sarj or KJ being the manipulators. Someone here said that couldn't be the case because of the Tears of Elune, but that's precisely why I think that it is. My friend totally missed portions of this story beat in real time, so here's why:

1: You go to find the Tears in Val'Sharah
2: But oh no, Xavius the Everpresent already beat you to it
3: He corrupts the Tears and uses it on Ysera to corrupt her - This is why she goes down so fast, and I think a lot of people miss it but you know it's true because...
4: You get the Tears back after killing Ysera, only they have been purified by their presence in the Temple....

But what if they haven't been? What if that was the plan the whole time, to corrupt one of the Pillars and allow it to fall back into the hands of the Champion? KJ or whoever couldn't have known exactly what we'd do with it, but in using it on Light's Heart there is essentially now a mole in our order hall and the Deceiver can do his thang and try to manipulate the heroes of the story.

What the end game would be there, I don't know, but it would certainly explain why Xe'Ra and the other Naaru aren't on the same page...

[Crashen]

I think Illidan should have spent less time worrying about the Legion killing him, and more time worrying about the Azerothians he pissed off with his ridiculous levels of douchebaggery, slavery, ecological destruction, manipulation and general bullshit. After all, the Legion didn't kill him. We did. But only after systematically dismantling every one of his great big "For the greater good!" schemes. His whole spiel about "I do what others can not" is kind of silly. Sometimes you gotta stop and wonder "Are others not able to do this, or do they just have a better way?" Good job, you had a plan to beat the legion. Too bad it pissed off the people who should be your allies to the point that they killed you. Maybe your plan wasn't the best in the first place, eh?

- - - Updated - - -

I very much think it is a manipulation, and right now I'm leaning to Sarj or KJ being the manipulators. Someone here said that couldn't be the case because of the Tears of Elune, but that's precisely why I think that it is. My friend totally missed portions of this story beat in real time, so here's why:

1: You go to find the Tears in Val'Sharah
2: But oh no, Xavius the Everpresent already beat you to it
3: He corrupts the Tears and uses it on Ysera to corrupt her - This is why she goes down so fast, and I think a lot of people miss it but you know it's true because...
4: You get the Tears back after killing Ysera, only they have been purified by their presence in the Temple....

But what if they haven't been? What if that was the plan the whole time, to corrupt one of the Pillars and allow it to fall back into the hands of the Champion? KJ or whoever couldn't have known exactly what we'd do with it, but in using it on Light's Heart there is essentially now a mole in our order hall and the Deceiver can do his thang and try to manipulate the heroes of the story.

What the end game would be there, I don't know, but it would certainly explain why Xe'Ra and the other Naaru aren't on the same page...

I think you are right on the money about the tears potentially being corrupted. I mean, the legion had it in their hands (or Xavius did, and who knows which side he's on) for an indeterminate period of time. Them being purified because we killed Ysera doesn't really seem to add up.

But I don't think it was the Sargeras or Kil'jaedan who orchestrated it. Why would they? They HAVE Illidan's body and soul, they don't gain anything by sending us after him. If they wanted to corrupt him or whatever, well, he's in their clutches already.

But the old gods... Now they have reason to use a gullible band of heroes to give the Legion a bloody nose, and bring them a powerful champion to corrupt to boot.

Also, on a potentially unrelated note, the Emerald Nightmare whisper "Her third death shall usher us in" makes me wonder... what if the 'she' they are referring to is Xe'ra? What if her memory core being ripped out of her body and hurled through a demon-gate into azeroth was her first death, the legion/illidan/old gods stealing the core back from us and 'killing' her is her second death, only for her to rise as a dark naaru prompting the heroes to kill her for good is the third and final death that triggers something? Maybe her dying in a particular place, or being slain by the pillars or something, is the final piece of the puzzle?

Lord knows enough players want to kill that sanctimonious wind-chime enough as is.

[Deleted]

i seriously hope there ends up being a twist and this isn't actually the prime naruu somehow (i know i know it is because of the elune stuff )

I, like lots of people were looking forward to the return of illidan and a possible redemption story, but not like this.

oh Illidan didn't get to be the first druid and had a tantrum, look how resilient illidan is, he really understands rejection
oh illidan sacrificed all his moon guard to make himself stronger to defeat the legion, but ravencrest is such an idiot for finding this concerning, he doesn't understand sacrifice like illidan does!

listening to this naruu fangirl over illidan so much is getting weird!

also what about A'dal, is he a dick too in xe'ras eyes, does A'dal need to prove himself worthy after he defied senpai illidan?

im pretty certain that we are being decieved in some way by xe'ra, i refuse to believe blizzard wrote this crap and thought it was a good redemption story for illidan.

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I wouldn't say Xe'ra is entirely without a point, either. Both in-game and externally speaking we (as players) are pretty easy to game - offer us loot and we'll burn down nearly any structure or kill any powerful entity to get a chance to roll for their belongings over their still-warm corpse. But that aside I think a lot of what Xe'ra is saying flies in the face of what both A'dal and Xi'ri were exhorting us to do back in TBC.

This, to me, opens up an entirely different supposition - that there are factions *within* the Naaru themselves, set to different goals and with their own agendas. I get the feeling that Xe'ra itself is something of a maverick, if not an out and out exile from the other Naaru. It seems to believe it knows better or different from its fellow Naaru, and where A'dal and Xi'ri were conducting a war on Illidan and his holdings in Outland Xe'ra is on his side or a believer in his "great destiny." I'm of a mind that neither camp truly knows the truth, and the final outcome will be somewhat different from what we're being led to believe (or that Illidan's "great destiny" will unfold in a way we don't expect).

it could just be Xe'ra is more illidan like, as in he believes any sacrifice is worth it if it means stopping the legion

[Aucald]

it could just be Xe'ra is more illidan like, as in he believes any sacrifice is worth it if it means stopping the legion

Entirely possible, and in my view probably even likely. I think there's a lot in Legion that points to the Naaru not having quite as much of a united front as they'd like us believe - and this issue of unity could also be a reason (if not *the* reason) that their Army of the Light is stymied in their offensive or defensive against the Legion. I don't personally think Xe'ra is a Dreadlord, corrupted by the Old Gods, or anything conspiracy-minded - I just believe it has its own agenda and is willing to implicitly mislead us (and it admits to such to DH characters albeit under the guise of righteousness) to achieve its goals.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Entirely possible, and in my view probably even likely. I think there's a lot in Legion that points to the Naaru not having quite as much of a united front as they'd like us believe - and this issue of unity could also be a reason (if not *the* reason) that their Army of the Light is stymied in their offensive or defensive against the Legion. I don't personally think Xe'ra is a Dreadlord, corrupted by the Old Gods, or anything conspiracy-minded - I just believe it has its own agenda and is willing to implicitly mislead us (and it admits to such to DH characters albeit under the guise of righteousness) to achieve its goals.

When they mention the Army of Light, it seemed like they were getting pushed back due to the Legion just being near infinite. At least that's what I perceived it as. Not to mention, Light's Heart did have Turalyon's message. So it's even harder for the idea of Xe'ra being not as she says but still feels odd with her worshipping Illidan.

It's just hard to swallow. Course we only know part of the story.

[Aucald]

When they mention the Army of Light, it seemed like they were getting pushed back due to the Legion just being near infinite. At least that's what I perceived it as. Not to mention, Light's Heart did have Turalyon's message. So it's even harder for the idea of Xe'ra being not as she says but still feels odd with her worshipping Illidan.

It's just hard to swallow. Course we only know part of the story.

If Xe'ra was awaiting the reconstitution of Illidan to serve as the vanguard of the Light, why would it commit the Army of the Light to a potentially devastating defeat against the infinite Legion forces? My personal take on Xe'ra's unveiling of the message from Turalyon is that it suits her agenda - namely motivating Khadgar and company to devote resources to the campaign to recover Illidan's body and/or soul. I believe there are other individual Naaru leading the campaign against Argus, Naaru who embody another faction that Xe'ra is indirectly opposed to or at least not allied with.

I would really like to get A'dal or Xi'ri's take on the matter - since it was their words and indirect actions that kind of led to the campaign against Illidan in the first place.

[Strategos]

I like it so far I don't get why everyone is so whiney other than they can't stand being told they the player did something bad.

Illidan has been my favorite character since Warcraft 3 though so maybe I'm just biased.

[Florena]

I doubt the tears are corrupted. It wasn't just Ysera dying but an aparant elune miracle that did it.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I like it so far I don't get why everyone is so whiney other than they can't stand being told they the player did something bad.

Illidan has been my favorite character since Warcraft 3 though so maybe I'm just biased.

You said that already and it's not a good answer.

[Florena]

I like it so far I don't get why everyone is so whiney other than they can't stand being told they the player did something bad.

Illidan has been my favorite character since Warcraft 3 though so maybe I'm just biased.

It's not just a matter of 'we did something wrong and I don't like it.' For example I'm fine that we're partly responsible for setting the Sha loose in Pandaria. It's the fact that it's such a one sided story in favor of Illidan stacked on top of heavily retconning what Illidan was doing at that point in time (in BC he was insane and ranting about how he defeated Arhtas etc). It sweeks everything bad Illidan did under the rug rather than presenting it as a morally ambiguous and complex situation that we only saw one side of. It's saying we have to REDEEM ourselves for killing poor innocent misunderstood Illidan who did plenty of terrible shit to warrant it.

[Strategos]

You said that already and it's not a good answer.

You're not making any sense.

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It's not just a matter of 'we did something wrong and I don't like it.' For example I'm fine that we're partly responsible for setting the Sha loose in Pandaria. It's the fact that it's such a one sided story in favor of Illidan stacked on top of heavily retconning what Illidan was doing at that point in time (in BC he was insane and ranting about how he defeated Arhtas etc). It sweeks everything bad Illidan did under the rug rather than presenting it as a morally ambiguous and complex situation that we only saw one side of. It's saying we have to REDEEM ourselves for killing poor innocent misunderstood Illidan who did plenty of terrible shit to warrant it.

And TBC storyline was full of revisionisms, retcons, and character assassinations of several of the most significant Warcraft 3 characters acting completely out of chararcter.

The Illidan novel puts it all in perspective and 'retcons' the poor storyline aspects of TBC that made no sense. It retconned a retcon. Your priorities are mixed up if you want to complain more about the Illidan novel than the TBC storyline.

Complaining about the "Illidan' novel retconning TBC lore is like complaining about medicine tasting bad when you are sick.

[Kralljin]

And TBC storyline was full of revisionisms, retcons, and character assassinations of several of the most significant Warcraft 3 characters acting completely out of chararcter.

The only thing that appeared out of character from my perspective was Kael'thas joining with the legion.

Outside of that? Illdan went bonkers, hardly surprising.
Vashj fanatically loyal to Illidan, still there.
Maiev, pissed at Illidan, figured as much.

At this point, we're pretty much done with the majority of Warcraft 3:TFT characters that also appeared in BC, maybe Akama but i don't really see how he acted out of character.

BC had hardly any story and explained even less, that was the big issue here, but with the exception of Kael'thas i can't really find those major revisionisms and retcons.

[Enthralled]

The only thing that appeared out of character from my perspective was Kael'thas joining with the legion.

Outside of that? Illdan went bonkers, hardly surprising.

No, that didn't have to happen at all. If they had to make him into a raid boss, they could have at least done his character the courtesy of a better sendoff than "he went bonkers". He didn't even have to die in BC.

[Tech Priest Bojangles]

I did the AK5 quests today as a DH and really enjoyed it. Makes more since coming from that perspective.

PS. I totally wrecked the shit out of that raid, they kept battle ressing like shitlords.