What's Frost feel like now?

[Schizoide]

Yes, the P stands for "pre".

[gixxpunk]

So either Simcraft is broken/wrong (which is entirely possible, as the alternative means all the world top DKs are wrong) or Frostscythe should not be used. I couldn't make it worth using even with +2400 mastery.

Did you doublecheck your results with an old simc build that does not have the upcoming hotfixes included? It could be that after the hotfix Frostscythe is simply the weaker choice...

[Tehr]

Well none of us have T19...
How about play the game and see how frost does in person instead of analyzing computer calculation

That is probably the most naive shit I've seen said all day.

Sorry for being rude.

[Piz813]

That is probably the most naive shit I've seen said all day.

Sorry for being rude.

What? Saying you should TRY IT instead of all this rocket science math. It's been already figured out frost buff adds about 10% single target and more forever AoE. Still behind UH by a bit. Just play it if you enjoy it already!
I been saying for months in beta frost is fine.

[Onie]

True true!!!

[bungie]

What? Saying you should TRY IT instead of all this rocket science math. It's been already figured out frost buff adds about 10% single target and more forever AoE. Still behind UH by a bit. Just play it if you enjoy it already!
I been saying for months in beta frost is fine.

That's nice. Maybe some of us enjoy our 'rocket science math'.

[friedmudkipz]

Necrosis is the best single target talent to take For fights like Nythendra and Ursoc, its ahead of the others.

Might be true. Hasn't been the case in my experience but I fully admit I may be wrong on that.

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UF with bracers and Necrosis is actually the best setup for Single target.

Sim doesn't run bracers.

[krumz]

Simcraft is bullshit anyways, how about just play the game without relying on some programme to tell you how to play or what to expect. I run HC's and Mythic's (+) as Frost and very rarely I get beaten on meters. Their burst damage and AOE are insane tho single target is lacking I admit.

This man knows what he's talking about. The rest of you are fools.

[Schizoide]

Yes, one dude's anecdotal "doing great on the meters" trumps all sims and theorycrafting. Seems legit.

[hellhamster]

This man knows what he's talking about. The rest of you are fools.

I won't even begin to comment why that comment is so wrong. I'll give a hint though. Your ass will make the bench about 10 degrees warmer on mythic Nyth, Ursoc, dragons, cenarius and Xavius. That is assuming your guildies are at least as good as you.

[Zandalariprelate]

I want to know if frost is ahead or at least equal to unholy which i really enjoy both class the shards of frostmoure are to nice to me(just in the cosmectic part)

[Tehr]

What? Saying you should TRY IT instead of all this rocket science math. It's been already figured out frost buff adds about 10% single target and more forever AoE. Still behind UH by a bit. Just play it if you enjoy it already!
I been saying for months in beta frost is fine.

Tell me how you've figured that out without actually having tested it yourself? Sims do exactly what you're doing in your head, except far more accurate. They also allow you to test with a much greater confidence because you can run the test thousands of times, something otherwise impossible to do. Additionally, they allow you to test multiple different scenarios simultaneously and compare, such as talent changes that would require far too much time if tested manually.

[Baddok21]

I want to know if frost is ahead or at least equal to unholy which i really enjoy both class the shards of frostmoure are to nice to me(just in the cosmectic part)

Frost would still need abit more buffs to be mathematically equal to Unholy however... Mechanically Unholy is better suited to excel at a wide range of Raid boss fights and would naturally do better simply due to that.


just like if both were the same tuned DPS Frost would be mechanically stronger for how Mythic+ dungeons are run (AoE stun/slow, no set-up cleave/AoE and can Sindy every boss)

the more i think about it this bother me less and less since Mythic+ Dungeons are #1 fun #2 a separate and somewhat equal progression path. (heck! if Mythic+ keeps going up to 15-20-30 etc ill be going back for a new Angerboda every tier)

[RuneDK]

I want to know if frost is ahead or at least equal to unholy which i really enjoy both class the shards of frostmoure are to nice to me(just in the cosmectic part)

still behind unholy..but they're closer...sims show we're both close to the bottom. However I trust Legion sims about as much as either presidential candidate....which is not at all.

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Frost would still need abit more buffs to be mathematically equal to Unholy however... Mechanically Unholy is better suited to excel at a wide range of Raid boss fights and would naturally do better simply due to that.


just like if both were the same tuned DPS Frost would be mechanically stronger for how Mythic+ dungeons are run (AoE stun/slow, no set-up cleave/AoE and can Sindy every boss)

the more i think about it this bother me less and less since Mythic+ Dungeons are #1 fun #2 a separate and somewhat equal progression path. (heck! if Mythic+ keeps going up to 15-20-30 etc ill be going back for a new Angerboda every tier)

Can't use SF on every boss if you're killing stuff quickly. Did Maw M+ last night and didn't have SF for the 2nd boss.

[hellhamster]

Can't use SF on every boss if you're killing stuff quickly. Did Maw M+ last night and didn't have SF for the 2nd boss.

I just use Sindy whenever she's up on huge packs with PoF and Unholy strength. 28 million dps on first Maw of Souls boss+trash.

[Piz813]

Tell me how you've figured that out without actually having tested it yourself? Sims do exactly what you're doing in your head, except far more accurate. They also allow you to test with a much greater confidence because you can run the test thousands of times, something otherwise impossible to do. Additionally, they allow you to test multiple different scenarios simultaneously and compare, such as talent changes that would require far too much time if tested manually.

was worked out on Discord on Saturday. With a different dmp profile. Run your sims all day. Some guys will excel. Some will be ahead fo UH on som efights. Some will be tied and some will be not so behind UH. No computer can calculate that


but the one that are ahead of UH or neck and neck will be in that spot cause they like frost and TRIED IT OUT IN GAME and practiced.

[gixxpunk]

Some guys will excel. Some will be ahead fo UH on som efights. Some will be tied and some will be not so behind UH. No computer can calculate that

It can. That's why there is a player skill dropdown field in simcraft. (elite, good, average)
So if you are not lying at yourself, you can choose the one that fits you and so you will get proper results for yourself.

And please stop repaeting "TRIED IT OUT IN GAME"... because everyone does try it out in game. Simc is simply a tool to double check and improve your ingame rotation and talent choices.

[Garlee]

OK so I don't understand the math and get lost in it. Can someone give me a clear talent build for heroic nightmare raiding? I've been going for the crit mastery builds but the gear I'm getting from raid doesn't really support that yet

[Dracovian]

What? Saying you should TRY IT instead of all this rocket science math. It's been already figured out frost buff adds about 10% single target and more forever AoE. Still behind UH by a bit. Just play it if you enjoy it already!
I been saying for months in beta frost is fine.

How is having your only mobility on a 45 second cd, no scaling, being forced into a cookie cutter talent setup(just to be ever so slightly less behind) and no utility except for 1 grip fine? Everything you have been saying since beta has been proven to be incorrect. I am surprised you still make these kinds of claims. I thought after Mythic+/Raids you would have seen the truth by now. It's no longer some theory. Its been proven.

I understand some people play with lesser skilled/geared players and that makes them believe they are able to compete. That's fine. At that skill level you wouldn't know the difference I guess. So to those kinds of players I guess Frost would seem fine. The rest of us playing with skilled mages/monks/rogues know the reality and its important to be honest with people instead of all this wishful thinking.

[Schizoide]

Lots of DPS specs lack utility, but that DK sprint truly is terrible. I grit my teeth every time I use that piece of crap.

It's particularly bad now that there are no runspeed enchants left in the game for 110s; I haven't walked around at 100% speed since... well, ever. Excruciating.

None of the above has anything directly to do with frost's competitive DPS, though. Since it was at the bottom of actual raid meters, generated from thousands of actual raid parses, saying that "frost was fine" is demonstrably and deterministically untrue.