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  1. #21
    Deleted
    I don't find Destruction very interesting. There isn't a whole lot of abilities that synergize whatsoever.

    Throughout fights it doesn't really feel like I'm building up to this spectacular moment where I completely blow my load. I just go with the flow, as I generate RNG soul shards. This essentially means that there are ocassional horrible downtime where you're doing nothing but casting incinerate and just wishing for a soul shard or 2 so you can sort of get back into action again.

    With the ember system it always felt like I was building up to something. Anything. The moments where I was casting incinerate wasn't as bad simply because I knew I was at least getting closer to them sweet Chaos bolts.

    Doesn't help some of the abilities are just really boring. Dimensional Rift is a treat on the eyes, but absolutely one of the most boring abilities. No synergy with anything as it just deals damage. Isn't affected by Havoc (granted it would be OP), so it's extra one-dimensional ability.

    I understand and like that Blizz wanted you to make more important decisions with talent trees, but some of the abilities locked behind talents completely blew my mind. Backdraft locked behind talent? The only thing that made/make conflagration interesting? Shadowburn which was basically essential to the Warlock kit. Demonic Portal?!?!?!?! That one remains the most puzzling decision to me. Did we really have to sacrifice our Demonic Portal baseline so that Monks could keep theirs?

    The worst part is that I know this is the Destruction we'll be playing with for the next 2 years. The changes I'd love to see are far too heavy. Honestly, anything moving towards the MoP model is welcome. I don't even need Fel Flame and all that jazz, but the Ember System was absolutely perfectly functioning and made it feel like you were building up to a climax.

  2. #22
    I also like the idea of a faster Chaos Bolt cast time. While Blizzard has given us the option of cutting it down with talents, the primary issue I have is that when we want to spec for AoE, our Chaos Bolt is way too slow. In mythic EN starting this week destro Warlocks, despite the buffs we got, are going to have a fairly rough time. When a patch of bad stuff appears under your feet at the start of a Chaos Bolt cast it's disproportionately bad for your DPS in comparison to other ranged classes in the game.

  3. #23
    Somethings I really regret to even leveling my warlock as the new main of this xpac i really hate the actual affli and destro is too rng to my taste also all the specs are nearly in the botton of dps with only one fight where we dont suck.

  4. #24
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMagicMan View Post
    I don't find Destruction very interesting. There isn't a whole lot of abilities that synergize whatsoever.

    Throughout fights it doesn't really feel like I'm building up to this spectacular moment where I completely blow my load. I just go with the flow, as I generate RNG soul shards. This essentially means that there are ocassional horrible downtime where you're doing nothing but casting incinerate and just wishing for a soul shard or 2 so you can sort of get back into action again.

    With the ember system it always felt like I was building up to something. Anything. The moments where I was casting incinerate wasn't as bad simply because I knew I was at least getting closer to them sweet Chaos bolts.

    Doesn't help some of the abilities are just really boring. Dimensional Rift is a treat on the eyes, but absolutely one of the most boring abilities. No synergy with anything as it just deals damage. Isn't affected by Havoc (granted it would be OP), so it's extra one-dimensional ability.
    That's another one of my gripes.

    Incinerate has no synergy with anything, so casting it feels completely lackluster.
    Chaos Bolt has no real synergy with anything unless you have a proc trinket you can use with it, but plenty of the good trinkets like the WQ stat sticks, Devilsaur, multiple raid trinkets etc have zero interaction and just do their thing in the background, Chronoshard is a haste proc which isn't really something that CB scales with in a way that makes you bank CB's around it.
    Conflag has some degree of synergy if you take Backdraft, but with it being just a very short buff afterwards instead of a charge system it's not really something that you can do much thinking around, especially when Conflag is also one of the few tools you have for movement and you've got the artifact talent proc occasionally making you dump a conflag charge before it falls off.

    Dimensional Rift, while bland, I'm relatively happy with. It'd perhaps be interesting if it did more, but at least it's got a pretty well defined use - it's either burst or a movement ability, and you're not really having to feel punished for using it in either role, unlike conflag currently feels where using it on the move occasionally feels like it's robbing you of smarter usage, either through Backdraft, Eradication or simply not wanting to generate an ember at the time. DR fit a nice hole in destructions toolkit and it doesn't have any extra baggage to make it an unpleasant choice to use it in that role and the charge system gives it something, even if it isn't super deep. Far nicer than Incinerate feeling like it's completely disconnected from everything.

  5. #25
    Right now demonology is the kid with new shoes per the devs design. Just like in years past with classes, one spec tops out then the other specs trail. Once the shoes get their skid marks n muddy they then give another spec new shoes etc. That's how bliz does this every expansion.

    That's also typically why bliz recommends folks play to the class not the spec. In previous expansions that was much much easier but because of the artifact AP/AK issue it becomes so much more tedious. However, just like other expansions, it looks like this too is a gating tool.

    The conflicts arising from all of this are just the horse's stomach growling whilst the driver pulls that carrot out of reach to keep em moving forward. Eventually though the horse gets fed. Just not in the timing the horse would necessarily like.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Turturin the Warlock View Post
    I don't think it's the long cast time by itself that bothers me. Its the cast time + lack of wtf dmg it used to have + lack of mobility that together are the perfect storm.

    MoP = same cast time, but higher damage, dark soul, burning rush, and KJs cunning to compensate
    WoD = lower cast time, still higher damage, dark soul, burning rush, and a weaker KJ's
    Legion = higher cast time, lower damage, no dark soul, burning rush as a talent, no KJ-like talent option.

    Meanwhile, mages who have multiple high damage instant casts have ice floes.

    In my mythic group this week I ran with two mages. Our ability to have good times on numerous bosses hinged on them getting targeted with "runaway" abilitites rather than me (i.e. Serpentrix puddle thing). Just not cool that I feel like a complete drag on the group when that happens.
    I think the removal of our 1 sec GCD is contributing a great deal to our slow cast feeling as well. Til this very moment I still have no earthly idea why or how Blizzard devs thought this current iteration of Destro was even worth the time to brainstorm about. It's hard to believe these inferior design mechanics aren't intentional.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I asked Celestalon during WoD beta about making Immolate an instant cast spell as a Major Glyph option and all he could gather from it was I was determined turn Immolate into Corruption. By asking for an instant cast time.......

    I think Celestalon is great with numbers tuning but he needs to be kept as far away from class mechanics as possible. His flaw is that he looks at class mechanics from a pure numbers point of view and tends to miss the practicality of what people are asking about. The Legion warlock design changes have his fingerprints all over them, and those who think like him.
    Last edited by Roujeaux; 2016-09-27 at 12:56 AM.
    "Warlocks are the class that gives

    we give all our spells and abilities to other classes"

    - Bamboozer, from the Official WoW Warlock Forum

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    That's another one of my gripes.

    Incinerate has no synergy with anything, so casting it feels completely lackluster.
    Chaos Bolt has no real synergy with anything unless you have a proc trinket you can use with it, but plenty of the good trinkets like the WQ stat sticks, Devilsaur, multiple raid trinkets etc have zero interaction and just do their thing in the background, Chronoshard is a haste proc which isn't really something that CB scales with in a way that makes you bank CB's around it.
    Conflag has some degree of synergy if you take Backdraft, but with it being just a very short buff afterwards instead of a charge system it's not really something that you can do much thinking around, especially when Conflag is also one of the few tools you have for movement and you've got the artifact talent proc occasionally making you dump a conflag charge before it falls off.

    Dimensional Rift, while bland, I'm relatively happy with. It'd perhaps be interesting if it did more, but at least it's got a pretty well defined use - it's either burst or a movement ability, and you're not really having to feel punished for using it in either role, unlike conflag currently feels where using it on the move occasionally feels like it's robbing you of smarter usage, either through Backdraft, Eradication or simply not wanting to generate an ember at the time. DR fit a nice hole in destructions toolkit and it doesn't have any extra baggage to make it an unpleasant choice to use it in that role and the charge system gives it something, even if it isn't super deep. Far nicer than Incinerate feeling like it's completely disconnected from everything.
    Reminder that Dimension Ripper exists and if you hate Incinerate being "bland" it's only your fault for not going that way first.

    Should the effect have been built into the rift spell itself? Maybe, probably. But it still exists, and Incinerate does not simply do "nothing but damage" for the vast majority of the expansion.

  8. #28
    Deleted
    With 34% Haste and Backdraft my Chaos Bolt has a 1.5 cast time.
    Sooo.
    Get more Haste?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by bio347 View Post
    Reminder that Dimension Ripper exists and if you hate Incinerate being "bland" it's only your fault for not going that way first.

    Should the effect have been built into the rift spell itself? Maybe, probably. But it still exists, and Incinerate does not simply do "nothing but damage" for the vast majority of the expansion.
    Oh yea that 5% proc...woo. So exciting.

  10. #30
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by bio347 View Post
    Reminder that Dimension Ripper exists and if you hate Incinerate being "bland" it's only your fault for not going that way first.

    Should the effect have been built into the rift spell itself? Maybe, probably. But it still exists, and Incinerate does not simply do "nothing but damage" for the vast majority of the expansion.
    No, no I'm quite sure it's the developers fault if the spec feels disconnected and unsatisfying unless you spec a particular, likely suboptimal path in a temporary talent tree - the result of doing so being that you're missing out on crit and your ember generation is even slower in a thread where the titular complaint is explicitly about the speed of the spec.
    These very same developers that knew it would take months to max out an artifact and advertised it as so, and presumably didn't design the game around literally no-lifing AP gains like I've been doing, so anyone with the gall to play it at a casual level has even less of a chance of getting this gameplay improvement until godknows how long into the expansion.

    No, I'm pretty sure the blame lies pretty soundly on the game developers who made the spec and chose to redesign a perfectly functional resource system, hell, possibly the best resource system the class has had between it's three specs for the last four or so years.
    Last edited by mmoc1571eb5575; 2016-09-27 at 04:57 AM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Atreyis View Post
    simply stating that movement is much more important
    Someone didn't do hard modes

  12. #32
    another thing i think is boring about destro is it lacks procs. would be cool to have something similar to fire mage's pyromania, like 'after critting twice in a row your next chaos bolt deals 100% more dmg (and since CB always crits, it would make us stockpile shards for hard burst)'
    thats what destro was always for me, burst... and now we dont have any. if not for wreck havoc, we would be the bads in every area.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Atreyis View Post
    Destro would be fine in a WotLK and earlier iteration of WoW. Back then bosses were not nearly as complex as they are in todays game (not trying to start a debate of harder vs easier, simply stating that movement is much more important). It is my opinion that cast times for all casters are unduly burdening and that at MAX they should have a 2s cast time when hardcasting but that there should also be many more procs for instant casts.

    Few things feel worse that starting a cast and then have a boss ability pop causing you to choose between either losing the damage and moving now or praying that you can get the cast off and still move in time before pissing off your raid lead.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also this is why I initially went affliction out of the gates at launch and sunk 20 points in it hoping that the naysayers from beta would be proven wrong and the spec would be fixed. Aff feels so much better when it comes to mobility and reacting. Boy was I proven wrong.
    I tried affliction (got 16 points in it) on a rare WQ where I could pull and continuously kill mobs 1-2 at a time ... Wrath of Consumption and Soul Flame actually felt good and useful. It adds a layer of complexity to the spec - slow ramp-up to Wrath and longer buff or fully ramp-up but risk losing the buff, the damage boost felt OK. Wish we had souls back with a way to kill 1 at a time that's not too annoying - off-GCD spell or damage transferred to main target (in which case they can go ahead and remove effigy ) ).

    I also believe they could help with agony by giving us a passive that ticks up to 20 and the agony cast applies as many stacks as we have of the passive. This could ramp-up "agony" only out of combat if needed.

  14. #34
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    I feel like Warlock as a class has devolved in Legion. We were better in WoD, we were way better in Mists.
    This is why I have been doomsaying about destruction since before WoD launched. Now, in Legion, at least we got good things along with the bad. Artifact ability is pretty strong to have, and Havoc is also very strong, especially with wreak havoc. Going from MoP to WoD though, I felt like destruction and affliction basically became a watered down version of what they were.

    Let's hope that 7.1 brings some cool changes for warlocks in general. God knows we could use it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by keymil View Post
    another thing i think is boring about destro is it lacks procs. would be cool to have something similar to fire mage's pyromania, like 'after critting twice in a row your next chaos bolt deals 100% more dmg (and since CB always crits, it would make us stockpile shards for hard burst)'
    thats what destro was always for me, burst... and now we dont have any. if not for wreck havoc, we would be the bads in every area.
    Also this. Destruction needs some more stuff to react to, right now you just follow the rules and that is about it. I guess shard refunds could count as something reactionary, but... Yeah, that's kinda not what I'm thinking.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by keymil View Post
    another thing i think is boring about destro is it lacks procs. would be cool to have something similar to fire mage's pyromania, like 'after critting twice in a row your next chaos bolt deals 100% more dmg (and since CB always crits, it would make us stockpile shards for hard burst)'
    thats what destro was always for me, burst... and now we dont have any. if not for wreck havoc, we would be the bads in every area.
    Dynamic shard income is your procs to react to, especially when you have immolate running on multiple targets.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Dynamic shard income is your procs to react to, especially when you have immolate running on multiple targets.
    No, its ressource management. Would you call the talent that refunds mana when we use chaos bolt a proc too?

    and even the shard generation from immolate would be more interesting and would actually scale with us (like fire mages with crit) if it was 15% basic / further increased by crit chance.
    current problem i see is, we are so slow that we rush haste. what about CB scaling with crit? what about artifact trait guaranteeing the next conflagration crit?
    with shard generation from immolate increased by crit chance, and not just doubling the chance when we crit, and with artifact trait increasing crit chance of immo, we could actually focus on crit chance, which would synergise with
    -chaos bolt dmg
    -artifact trait conflagration crit
    -shard generation

    id rather be slow and hard hitting, than fast and scratching
    Last edited by TickTickTick; 2016-09-27 at 10:03 AM.

  17. #37
    Enjoying destro. Incinerate feels weaksauce without dimensional ripper. But chaos bolt fun as always, never leave home without reverse entropy for the saved globals (no life tapping) and other saved cast times. Backdraft is bad though and I still take shadowburn in any case adds will be frequently dying.
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  18. #38
    Deleted
    "Oh no I have to know the fights to optimize my movements and so my damage outputs."

    Go play FF for a while, we'll talk then about casting versus mobility paradox.
    BadBadBlizzard!

  19. #39
    Deleted
    I personally don't mind the fact that Chaos Bolt has a long cast time, however, what I don't like is that it simply is not rewarding, if it's damage was increased 10-20% maybe it'd be more rewarding for taking either a risky cast, or being able to catch up with a powerful hitting ability.

    However from what I've seen posted numerous times here; "Future raids will be tuned around having legendaries", if that is true, which you should take with a pinch of salt, we should assume that near endgame we're going to be spitting chaos bolts out more or less consistently, without filler.

  20. #40
    I still think the spec would have been way better off had they left several staples in the spec. Backdraft, shadowburn, 1 second GCD, even the old backlash. But as someone else said, we just give everything to other classes nowadays ( boomkin got backlash, demon hunters took a bunch, mages absorbed a lot of our cooldowns / aesthetics)

    I'd love to see cataclysm become baseline and maybe instant cast? A reliable way to spread many immolates quickly would be great. Get rid of its upfront burst damage if necessary to warrant this.

    Demonic circle also needs to be baseline again. I just can't even process why we have to talent our only mobility move. If circle is a talent, then burning rush should be baseline.

    On a smaller note too, I'd love to see channel demonfire get a new animation. Something a bit beefier perhaps. Right now it feels like I'm blowing bubbles at the target :P

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