1. #27841
    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    Personally, I feel the mechanic-changing set bonuses to be a drawback in WoW, as it feels like you're sub-par if you don't have your set. This is what generated so much hate towards Raid Finder, as the raiders felt like they were forced to do it in order to get those set bonuses and proccing trinkets ASAP, or they were not pulling their weight. But by the same token it pissed off people in WoD when they took the set bonuses back from Raid Finder to cater to the raiders and basically shit on the LFR players saying they're not good enough to have the shinies the 'real raiders' get.

    It might feel more boring mechanically, but I think it's better for the playerbase to have looks and raw stats be the reward for the harder content, not gameplay-changing gimcracks.
    yea i've never been a fan of specs being unplayable or broken without their set bonus.

  2. #27842
    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    yea i've never been a fan of specs being unplayable or broken without their set bonus.
    Then that's an issue of class balance, not an issue of gear. Do your job right and it's not necessary.

  3. #27843
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    Then that's an issue of class balance, not an issue of gear. Do your job right and it's not necessary.
    Then once you add those bonuses it becomes unbalanced if it's started at balanced, you see the problem?

    - - - Updated - - -

    And really, the class should hold it's own without any weird perks from items, if a game relies on it then something is wrong. Special effect items are 'interesting' but a nightmare.

  4. #27844
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    - A dye system in WoW, even if it were as archaic as what is in FF14, would be absolutely amazing. Even if I don't play the game anymore, I would love to see that get implemented...I mean hey, they essentially ripped the transmog system out of Diablo 3 and imported it into WoW...why stop there? Even if the dyeable gear were limited to the mythic-only sets...which it probably wouldn't, because I can guarantee that would create a mountain of salt here and on official forums.
    Each color has it's own texture. (Instead of having one base texture and applying the color in post processing)
    So, adding dyes would blow up the client file size, since wow has A LOT more items than FF.
    They'd need to rework half of their game in order to implement that.

  5. #27845
    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    And really, the class should hold it's own without any weird perks from items, if a game relies on it then something is wrong. Special effect items are 'interesting' but a nightmare.
    Yeah, that's actually what I meant. You shouldn't rely on gearsets to 'fix' something that's an issue of class balance. I get that sometimes adjustments are made for PvP that affect PvE and they try to counter it with gearsets, but that's where I feel you just need to segregate changes between the two. The original Guild Wars fought against that for years, but when they finally accepted some things just HAVE to work differently, it made things so much better. IMO if differences between class workings in PvE and PvP are what keep you from getting into PvP, then you probably weren't likely to care much about PvP in the first place.

  6. #27846
    Well, another 2000+ queue to get into Balmung.

  7. #27847
    Scarab Lord Anzaman's Avatar
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    Any ideas where to get new hairstyle, "Modern Aesthetics - Samsonian Locks"?

  8. #27848
    Scarab Lord Kaelwryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzaman View Post
    Any ideas where to get new hairstyle, "Modern Aesthetics - Samsonian Locks"?
    People are saying that its from Wonderous Tails.

  9. #27849
    Scarab Lord Anzaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelwryn View Post
    People are saying that its from Wonderous Tails.
    Ugh.. would have been so nice to see how it looks like.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelwryn View Post
    People are saying that its from Wonderous Tails.
    It has "2.X" tag on it tho, and Wondrous Tails is in Idyllshire.

  10. #27850
    Sophia is way easier than Sephirot that's for sure. Make Poltergeist in 3.5 harder

  11. #27851
    Scarab Lord Kaelwryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anzaman View Post
    Ugh.. would have been so nice to see how it looks like.

    - - - Updated - - -


    It has "2.X" tag on it tho, and Wondrous Tails is in Idyllshire.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ They could be wrong, but its not on the MGP vendors.

  12. #27852
    Ok A9 is fucking awesome for the kind of fight it is.

  13. #27853
    Quote Originally Posted by Anzaman View Post
    Yeah, some grades were quite expensive compared to others, sometimes they were even sold out.



    Already told my brother to hide my wallet somewhere.
    Well they may finally get me to buy from the store.... dammit.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    This statement to me underlies my dislike for FF14 itemization. What you're saying is certainly true, but then couldn't I just argue that in WoW you could just be a mythic dungeon(WoD era) geared player and be happy? Or are you saying that tomestone gear+ mats from 24s = same ilvl as raid gear so its ok? I'm curious if your statement is due to the ilvl being satisfactory in FF14 whereas raid gear ilvl in wow > mythic dungeon ilvl so not ok?
    I did forget about mythic dungeons in WoD, however, if I'm not mistaken wouldn't that have been a progression completion at the expansion's release and 2 years of nothing new? Did higher ilvl gear continue to be offered in Mythic dungeons? But even if it was, there were no additional dungeons after launch in WoD, making "dungeon progression" the path of nothing new where FFXIV at least gives 2 new dungeons, or the 24 mans, on a consistent, regular basis. So you're still increasing your ilvl and seeing new content over the full course of the expansion despite not being a top level raider.

    I think Square keeping ilvls near each other, though, is fairly wise. They also don't make the huge ilvl leaps that WoW does, which allows them to keep non-progression raid players just a few steps behind rather than 100s of ilvls in the course of 6 months.

    As far as the normal/savage split vs. 24m + BC I actually agree. I don't think WoW's multiple difficulty system is the best iteration of splitting "skilled" vs. "less-skilled" IMO. I liked that the reward for BC was additional story etc, that would have made me want to get better to do it, but then again if I wasn't a skilled player how would I feel?
    Well, I'm sure some feel "but what about meeeeee" but Square does add the echo so you can tackle it a cycle behind and have a little help. Or you can wait for the next expansion when you're OP and still get to see that story (yet some fights can't entirely be overpowered by gear and levels alone. Mechanics will still kill ya on a few).

    Again, just off personal experience, was quite happy with tomestones + CT trio, then going after Primal EX fights towards the end of 2.x and Bahamut's Coil during Heavensward to see that whole thing.


    There's definitely a lot of cross game snatching occurring on both sides. Anyone who says otherwise is out of their mind.
    Which is good. Competition breeds creativity etc, etc. Plus some of Blizzard's best efforts are reiterating on other ideas and putting their style on 'em.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2016-09-27 at 01:31 PM.

  14. #27854
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Each color has it's own texture. (Instead of having one base texture and applying the color in post processing)
    So, adding dyes would blow up the client file size, since wow has A LOT more items than FF.
    They'd need to rework half of their game in order to implement that.
    For clarification, that's simply a pipe dream of mine. Always has been.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    Well, another 2000+ queue to get into Balmung.
    Er...I popped in with no issue around 7:20 AM EST (so just over 2 hours ago). Managed to snag an apartment in the Mist, and took stock of what was available and (at that time) there were still a fair amount of apartments still available. That could very well not be the case by this evening my time, but who knows?

    Edit: The new crafting/gathering requirements are crazy. 995 craftsmanship 955 control for 4* crafts. Probably looking at the 3* crafting food (which has all 3 stats) as being needed to make those items. 860 gathering 890 perception minimums for the new 3* mats that are gathered, although it's 910 gathering for +1 attempt proc and 930 for +2, which I am skeptical can be attained without food buff.
    Last edited by Kazgrel; 2016-09-27 at 01:37 PM.

  15. #27855
    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    Personally, I feel the mechanic-changing set bonuses to be a drawback in WoW, as it feels like you're sub-par if you don't have your set.
    Because you are sub-par if you don't have your set. That's the entire point. The set is a game-play changing and power boosting feature. I could argue you feel sub-par without your Anima/Savage weapon and it'd be true. It'd also be a stupid point. Shit just imaging having the DRG set bonus (or Relic, or Materia) add the effect of having an additional charge of Blood of the Dragon? That right there would add a ton of gameplay value. I could use it to dump more than normal Gierskoguls for the damage on adds, or save it to have access to a second charge in case I fucked up, or need it for burst DPS ala A3S.

    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    This is what generated so much hate towards Raid Finder, as the raiders felt like they were forced to do it in order to get those set bonuses and proccing trinkets ASAP, or they were not pulling their weight.
    As a moderately skilled raider, no one in my guild did RF to get those shitty sets/trinkets for raids. We stepped in normal, obliterated it, and then moved onto heroic and obliterated almost all of that before hitting a brief wall. So based on my experience I just cannot believe your statement to be accurate. I don't know anyone who followed that path, but maybe that was something lower skilled players who couldn't clear normal felt they needed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    But by the same token it pissed off people in WoD when they took the set bonuses back from Raid Finder to cater to the raiders and basically shit on the LFR players saying they're not good enough to have the shinies the 'real raiders' get.
    I'll probably get shit for this - but RF really shouldn't get the same quality of rewards (note not power, but quality) as raiders do. You're basically saying that RF which you can afk completely through pushing just 1 button over and over again standing in whatever your heart is content with should reward set bonuses, powerful trinkets, and hell why we are at it how about special unique mounts and titles too?

    I get your point, and I even understand where you are coming from, but I don't agree with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lawow74 View Post
    It might feel more boring mechanically, but I think it's better for the playerbase to have looks and raw stats be the reward for the harder content, not gameplay-changing gimcracks.
    I'm actually ok with both aspects rewarding game-play changing features.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    Nah, your response is far from what I got on Reddit which was "I want higher ilvl gear to feed my ego"; not exactly a ver batim reply, but damn near it.

    On itemization:

    - One thing Blizzard did recently with WoW, and FF14 could learn the same: Get rid of Accuracy (or Hit + Expertise, in WoW's case). Especially in a game where it's left to checking third party parsing in order to determine exactly what accuracy caps are.
    Believe it or not, I'm not terribly against hit/expertise/accuracy systems. They're a pain in the ass, but they don't really bother me. What bothered me about FF14 was the completely asinine way in which you had to validate your hit cap (ala heavily frowned upon third party app. I used it tho FYI). That was an issue, that I would agree it should definitely be removed in FF14.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    - As fun as trinkets can be in WoW, having put up with how absurdly powerful they are, I would rather see such a concept stay far, far away from FF14.
    I can understand your restraint, but then again they don't need to copypasta the concept. It could definitely be detuned or changed to fit the paradigm in FF14 more closely. The point I was making is just something, anything to add some spice/life to the items in this game.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    - To give the anima weapons perks and such akin to WoW artifact weapons would likely make them required for cutting edge raiding, when they've been advertised as the weapon path for non-raiders. Although this doesn't prevent a raider from working on anima weapons (healers in particular would, for accuracy, since no other weapons have that for them), it would be ludicrous to render the weapons from savage raiding irrelevant if the anima featured some sort of procs or bonus effects that put it over the top. It's basically wow trinket syndrome all over again.
    Alternatively perks could be attached to the savage weapons instead. The point isn't necessarily to hinge on which weapon its attached too, but to attach it somewhere to add a new level of reward/depth.

    That said while I understand completely what the goal of anima weapons are, I don't like it or agree with it. I always hated that these completely badass weapons of history are relegated to soulless stat sticks with a glow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    - Tomes can be netted from a variety of different gameplay types. It so happens that dungeons are the "best", at least in many people's minds. I've actually backed off dungeon running compared to even a month ago because 1. I've gotten into hunt linkshells and found that farming hunts is as efficient a way to work on anima weapons as any due to the amount of different currencies and what they can be flipped to, and 2. my RL friend, who's been dpsing while I went tank to get us in dungeons faster, has had to take time away from the game.
    Nothing you're saying here is incorrect. My point of discussion was that these content types you are referring to are completely non-engaging with afk level difficulty, and the rewards that you get from them are equally as boring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    - If itemization is so bland and such from FF14, then how would having savage reward higher ilvl stuff change that? Not really a question for you, per se, but more or less what I brought up on Reddit, only to have the answer be "to sate my ego", heh. I believe we both agree that FF14 could use at least one more neato stat and/or some tweaks to current stats to make them more appealling. Really, 90% of classes are "stack crit and X", X being a variable based on class (one exception being BLM, which hails spell speed as king).
    I don't actually think more vertical progression is what FF14 needs. It's already horribly vertical. It desperately needs more horizontal progression.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    Set bonuses could be something to consider for FF14, but given their history of broken-ness in WoW, they would end up amounting to nothing more than "here's X amount more crit", kinda like those low level GC items have. That's nothing to really write home about.

    Perhaps if materia became more something akin to how runes are in Guild Wars 2...eh, then any gear without materia slot would be considered trash.
    I wouldn't call the set bonuses broken, and I think you're doing them a disservice by saying it basically equates to more crit.

    I'm not familiar with the concept of runes in GW2, but I've actually proposed on here once a revamped materia system that I think would be awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    The issue with giving unique procs, set bonuses, or special effects / mods to skills is well... balance, which if you want to look at WoW's current situation, has no semblance of balance at all. Especially when people say you need specific artifact skills, then you should know you screwed up bad.
    That's not the "issue". If you add complexity you'll encounter more issues. That's no reason to shy away from it or shoot down an idea. In fact that mentality is a HUGE red flag in general.

    WoW's current situation as you state "has no semblance of balance". That's a hilariously gross over-exaggeration. They have balance issues without a doubt, but it's not completely non-existent balance as you stated.

    Everyone needs specific artifact skills. It doesn't change which spec/class you are. not sure how that's even relevant. In fact I played the worst spec in the game for artifact progression and I sucked for like 4 days, then I'm fine once I accrued enough AP to reset.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    Then once you add those bonuses it becomes unbalanced if it's started at balanced, you see the problem?
    Inaccurate. You're implying that its impossible to balance both. It is certainly not an easy task, but your argument keeps falling back to your well its too hard so I won't do it mentality, which as I stated is absolutely frightening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    And really, the class should hold it's own without any weird perks from items, if a game relies on it then something is wrong. Special effect items are 'interesting' but a nightmare.
    LOL WHAT? This is the most ridiculous stance I think I've ever seen on this board. Your argument is akin to saying a cooks job is doing something wrong because they transform raw boring ingredients into something more exciting. That's ridiculous.

    Neither game is "relying" on "weird" perks, but not having them has created a very stale itemization. It'd be ok if they had other systems in place to spice it up, but they don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    I did forget about mythic dungeons in WoD, however, if I'm not mistaken wouldn't that have been a progression completion at the expansion's release and 2 years of nothing new? Did higher ilvl gear continue to be offered in Mythic dungeons? But even if it was, there were no additional dungeons after launch in WoD, making "dungeon progression" the path of nothing new where FFXIV at least gives 2 new dungeons, or the 24 mans, on a consistent, regular basis. So you're still increasing your ilvl and seeing new content over the full course of the expansion despite not being a top level raider.
    You're not mistaken here, but what defines progression? Is it strictly gear ilvl? If so I have a HUGE problem with that. Progression to me is completing more/new challenges. Honestly you can beat every dungeon in FF14 with base ilvl from leveling with minimal effort. Beating them faster isn't progression. Once you've cleared it you should tackle a new challenge. When a new dungeon comes out that you're 20-30 ilvl above its recommended value (and could be cleared another 10-20 below that) and its rewards offer you downgrades at best, that's the problem.

    But again - the penultimate issue here is that ilvl is the ONLY measurable in FF14. I would like to see more ways to increase character power, but not just vertically.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2016-09-27 at 03:10 PM.

  16. #27856
    Scarab Lord Anzaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelwryn View Post
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ They could be wrong, but its not on the MGP vendors.
    It's apparently from PotD.

    "It’s a reward from the accursed hoard chests in PotD. The accursed hoard are chests that you dig up by standing in a specific place for a bit. Those places are usually unmarked/invisible - popping a pomander of insight will show you where they are. Once you get them, you have to talk to the expedition bishop in Quarrymill to get them appraised."



    http://polymorphologist.tumblr.com/p...c-34-hairstyle

  17. #27857
    Scarab Lord Kaelwryn's Avatar
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    Hmm...well atleast I've still got a few classes to level.

  18. #27858
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    That's not the "issue". If you add complexity you'll encounter more issues. That's no reason to shy away from it or shoot down an idea. In fact that mentality is a HUGE red flag in general.

    WoW's current situation as you state "has no semblance of balance". That's a hilariously gross over-exaggeration. They have balance issues without a doubt, but it's not completely non-existent balance as you stated.

    Everyone needs specific artifact skills. It doesn't change which spec/class you are. not sure how that's even relevant. In fact I played the worst spec in the game for artifact progression and I sucked for like 4 days, then I'm fine once I accrued enough AP to reset.
    Complexity for the sake of complexity does not equal fun. I personally fail to see the use of gimmick to make it more fun, especially when you just replace it in the end with another item.
    Inaccurate. You're implying that its impossible to balance both. It is certainly not an easy task, but your argument keeps falling back to your well its too hard so I won't do it mentality, which as I stated is absolutely frightening.
    Well, it is impossible, if history has said anything about it, when has there ever been any balance. Tell me one time it has ever been balanced.
    LOL WHAT? This is the most ridiculous stance I think I've ever seen on this board. Your argument is akin to saying a cooks job is doing something wrong because they transform raw boring ingredients into something more exciting. That's ridiculous.
    Considering I've gone to culinary school and such, what the fuck. This has absolutely nothing to do with the topic nor even remotely close to it.
    Neither game is "relying" on "weird" perks, but not having them has created a very stale itemization. It'd be ok if they had other systems in place to spice it up, but they don't.
    Well, for WoW's case, artifact skill is weird perks. Again, spicing it up does not make for fun. Increase complexity for the sake of it does not make it more fun, hell it can be more frustrating. More often than not stuff like proc buffs are more of a headache than it is actually fun. Lining up your procs with your CDs and hope RNG doesn't fuck you. A use item trinket is just another thing to just click along with the rest of the CD, doesn't make it even remotely more interesting, it's just another button. Describe to me an effect that is actually remotely interesting that isn't just going to be a buff that people will just leave it be cause it's another thing or a button that's just another button.

    Then comes the issue of making gameplay changing items. If you do that then well, it's a pain to just keep changing things every time a new item comes out.
    But again - the penultimate issue here is that ilvl is the ONLY measurable in FF14. I would like to see more ways to increase character power, but not just vertically.
    Adding something whether stats or effect to increase power is the very definition of vertical progression.

  19. #27859
    Scarab Lord Anzaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelwryn View Post
    Hmm...well atleast I've still got a few classes to level.
    Guess they found a way to make me run it again. Haven't been there since it was released and cleared floors.

    Sadly most of my group isn't willing to step inside again.

  20. #27860
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    You're not mistaken here, but what defines progression? Is it strictly gear ilvl? If so I have a HUGE problem with that. Progression to me is completing more/new challenges. Honestly you can beat every dungeon in FF14 with base ilvl from leveling with minimal effort. Beating them faster isn't progression. Once you've cleared it you should tackle a new challenge. When a new dungeon comes out that you're 20-30 ilvl above its recommended value (and could be cleared another 10-20 below that) and its rewards offer you downgrades at best, that's the problem.

    But again - the penultimate issue here is that ilvl is the ONLY measurable in FF14. I would like to see more ways to increase character power, but not just vertically.
    Probably the hardest question to answer, "what defines progression" as it's different to different people. Being a max level job in best Savage raid gear? Completing savage raids? Or is it expanding your character to offer DPS/Tank/Heal and have all three ready for use at a moment's notice (and capable in them)? Is it being an omnicrafter? Is it having enough gil to buy anything you desire on a whim? Is it simply having better gear than you did a week ago? And the answer, I suspect, is all of the above, depending on who you talk to and their interest in the game's offerings.

    What's your view on Palace of the Dead? It doesn't offer increase in character power, but solo'ing it entirely is a challenge, and the leader boards going in provides the bragging rights. Or is a lack of character power increase detrimental to a feeling of progression?

    Void Ark to Weeping City, definitely a higher level challenge there and I think each of CT trio had higher ilvl requirements to get into, along with varying mechanics to figure out.

    I consider tomestone progression of ilvl a necessary evil as it's unrealistic to expect a polished game to pump out enough content to keep up with player consumption. If you're savage raiding you don't have to worry about it too much, but a new raid for savage raiders every 2-3 months would be a hectic schedule for a development team too.

    Expanding character progression into new paths brings with it more challenges with balancing the game, especially if we continue to expect 3 new jobs per expansion.

    I think FFXIV is designed with more of a "live in another world for a while" approach and as such pursuing housing decorations, wasting some time in the casino, playing card games and chocobo racing, crafting, or just fishing up fish are intended to be breaks from the real world. While there is higher power gear coming out, I don't feel like the power climb is Square's sole focus. I haven't gotten that impression from an MMO since EverQuest and as an EQ Classic player, I have to say I love the approach.

    Now, granted, EverQuest eventually explored AA (Alternate Advancement) as well, but it was some time later and I think around the time WoW was changing MMORPGs into focused MMO vertical power progression. I think Square will continue to focus on the steady path with story being their foremost intent along with a variety of things for players to do aside from solely pushing for bigger numbers.

    As has been said since 2.0 launched, though, it's not for everyone and it probably will never be suited to everyone's tastes, but I think it fits in the niche its carving quite well.


    From patch notes:
    * Rank 14 is the final rank for veteran rewards.
    I has a sad.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Anzaman View Post
    Guess they found a way to make me run it again. Haven't been there since it was released and cleared floors.

    Sadly most of my group isn't willing to step inside again.
    Yoshida has made some comments about raid finder being cross-server being a bit of a tech test and made it sound like they'd like some way of a cross-server lobby to allow groups to form for things.

    If they could make cross-server linkshells and pre-mades happen, we could MMO-Champion up a linkshell and then folks on here could group, server be damned!
    Last edited by Faroth; 2016-09-27 at 05:17 PM.

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