First presidential debate - September 26: Trump vs Hillary

[Kellhound]

We've actually been over this like sixteen times.

The 2% number is irrelevant without fundamental European continenet wide procurement and efficiency reform.

On procurement, many countries in NATO produce duplicate pieces of equipment and finance them out of their budgets that are overall already smaller because of smaller populations. But a boat is still a boat, and a plane is still a plane no matter who is building it, the US or Europe. Right now the UK and France are both starting independent programs to build a new 6000 ton warship class that they call a "frigate". They will spend approximately half of their budget on these things on R&D and half on production. This is how the winnowing of European defense has happened - modern platforms got more expensive so they replaced 20 of an older model with 10 of a modern model, and variations on that theme. Even in the British Army for example... modern troops cost hundreds of thousands of pounds to train, equip and employ. So the Army has shrunk to below 100,000.

The solution is to stop expecting AND allowing countries with populations of 20 million, 30 million and 60 million to fund programs and have military forces that are independent 1/2 to 2/3rds scale American analogs. Europe's GDP is larger than the US. THe European Union is tremendously wealthy. It spends $300 billion per year on defense, most of it continental defense. But the rendundancy in defense on this issue alone (and there is a second one) blunts it's power.

All of Europe should buy one 6000 ton warship class.
All of Europe should buy one Strike Aircraft to replace the Panavia Tornado.
All of Euripe should fly one class of cargo and tanker aircraft.
All of Europe should use the same small arms, the same communications equipment.
All of Europe should buy the same tank.

So on and so forth.

So why doesn't this just happen? Well to a degree - a limited degree - it does. The Eurofighter is proof of that. But those are the exception, not the rule, and the fact is, France left the Eurofighter program and spun off the Rafale. Why? Well it explains why it hasn't "just happened", because this kind of Consolidation means the effective end of independent German warship building, French tank building and British aircraft building. Instead British defense dollars for new ships will go to French communities while German defense dollars go to British Communities. It won't be equally distributed. it can't be. In the US, states widely vary in the defense dollars they get (and why).

There is zero point in asking Europe to "pay more" without this being rectified, period. We'll get no more hard assets out of it.


The second reason is independent military capacity. Collectively the military forces of Europe are larger than the United States in terms of manpower (but not equippment by a long shot). But the 28 allies have 28 command staffs, 28 navies, 28 planning centers, 28 air forces. The biggest part of NATO - Allied Command for Transformation (ACT) - works overtime standardizing all these. But the fact remains, Europe right now is akin to what would have happened if American Revolutionary war era state militias carried on to the present day. Every country does not need to have it's own Tank divisions, for exampke.

The solution is obvious - talked about in another thread - that the European Union create a unified European military and that NATO transform into the alliance between that organization and the United States rather than the US, Canada and 26 European countries. However that route is deeply politically fraught for Europeans as we've seen, and it is also one of those "globalist" actions that Donald Trump and his legion of losers have spent a great deal of energy denouncing.

That's how you fix NATO. The money is secondary. Should Europe spend more? Yes. But that's the symptom, not the cause. The cause is a 21st century warship costs a lot more than a 1960s era warship to develop, and then mass produce, so Euripean countries buy fewer of them, while not consolidating their programs, which means they have to buy even fewer in order to move on to the next program.


But then there would be tremendous efficiency if the US got involved as well. The US has a need for a 4500-6000 ton "frigate" since the LCS is a joke. Rather than build it's own, it should just buy European. And then sell Arleigh Burke class Aegis destroyer tech to Europe like we do Japan and South Korea (and we do some European countries too). But that would effect a lot of jobs.

But cut through it all, it comes down to this: we need their friendship... their access, their people. We don't need their stuff. That is why our NATO allies matter. Hell if push came to shove and Russia made a move into Europe, the irony of NATO is that the US would be the one to stall activating Article V, in order to give Russia a way out without escalating the conflict, and to keep Europe out of the fighting.

What the USN needs to do is just buy updated Perry Class frigates with Mk-41 VLS in place of the Mk-13 SM-1 launcher.

[Hooked]

The news media was fully aware of what a joke this guy was (and still is), and simply ran clickbait non-stop coverage of him (oh my, he's so *different*, isn't he?), vastly disproportionate to other republican candidates, while not actually critiquing much of anything he was saying until recently.

Their bias is a primary reason he's even in the running at this point.

Well hes in the running because real americans like what he says. We are sick of the left.

[LilSaihah]

Whoa holy shit. "You've been fighting ISIS your entire adult life". Donnyboy settle down

Of course they are, Clinton would have a tough time beating a decent GOP candidate.

Who in the primaries would you have seen as being 'decent'?

[Hooked]

What the USN needs to do is just buy updated Perry Class frigates with Mk-41 VLS in place of the Mk-13 SM-1 launcher.

We need an aircraft carrier submarine.

[DeadmanWalking]

The news media was fully aware of what a joke this guy was (and still is), and simply ran clickbait non-stop coverage of him (oh my, he's so *different*, isn't he?), vastly disproportionate to other republican candidates, while not actually critiquing much of anything he was saying until recently.

Their bias is a primary reason he's even in the running at this point.

I would argue that the Media really wanted Trump to win the primaries because they knew what a ratings train wreck it would be, say what you want about how deadly and awful train wrecks are, everyone slows down to check out the carnage.

[Kellhound]

It doesn't matter, they need to pay their fair share on what was agreed upon.

It seems to matter to you.

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Whoa holy shit. "You've been fighting ISIS your entire adult life". Donnyboy settle down



Who in the primaries would you have seen as being 'decent'?

Most of them.

[DeadmanWalking]

Whoa holy shit. "You've been fighting ISIS your entire adult life". Donnyboy settle down



Who in the primaries would you have seen as being 'decent'?

My co-worker is a total rushite, drinks from the blood fountain of Limbaugh every day and even he said that Hillary is the easiest to defeat democrat in the history of the Republican party and yet he is still going to lose to her. Lately he has been drinking the cool-aid again and actually started to believe Trump could actually win as of late, it will be interesting to see how he reacts through these next few months. He is my own pet psychology experiment.
It was mana from heaven to drink of his tears when Romney lost.

[Hooked]

I would argue that the Media really wanted Trump to win the primaries because they knew what a ratings train wreck it would be, say what you want about how deadly and awful train wrecks are, everyone slows down to check out the carnage.

No you are wrong, watching a trump rally I actually had a tear in my eye. Finally someone was fighting for us.

[Milchshake]

With all that sniffing and crazy talk, the debates gave me flashbacks to that time I dropped acid while watching Airplane!.

[Kellhound]

We need an aircraft carrier submarine.

We have 4 already, we just never recover their aircraft.

[DeadmanWalking]

It seems to matter to you.

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Most of them.

What he meant is 'Facts don't matter, Trump said it so it must be true."

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No you are wrong, watching a trump rally I actually had a tear in my eye. Finally someone was fighting for us.

That's sweet, you actually think he is doing this for you. Actually, he realized that when you die money doesn't mean shit but being written into the history books is permanence.

Trump is about Trump and you are just the guy he needs to carry him to his bucket list.

[Macaquerie]

I would argue that the Media really wanted Trump to win the primaries because they knew what a ratings train wreck it would be, say what you want about how deadly and awful train wrecks are, everyone slows down to check out the carnage.

If several years down the line, it came out that Trump was just a plant all along, put there by Hillary and her cronies so that she could steamroll the weakest possible opponent, I wouldn't be surprised one bit. There were hardly any good candidates in the GOP field this year, but for all of their faults someone like Bush or Rubio could easily have beaten Clinton, and it's not unthinkable that her people nudged Trump to the top knowing that he would implode in front of a national audience.

[Kellhound]

What he meant is 'Facts don't matter, Trump said it so it must be true."

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That's sweet, you actually think he is doing this for you. Actually, he realized that when you die money doesn't mean shit but being written into the history books is permanence.

Trump is about Trump and you are just the guy he needs to carry him to his bucket list.

Facts dont matter to Clinton either.

[Asotcha]

Who won the debate americans?

Oh Clinton did, hugely. Every time I thought Trump hit bottom he managed to scrape down a lil farther. Never seen anything like it.

[DeadmanWalking]

Facts dont matter to Clinton either.

Give me a politician who knows their parties policies over a used car salesman who doesn't.

I'm an independent voter, based on the candidates before me I have to chose the one who can tell me their parties policies because they actually are members of their perspective party as opposed to a guy who just says what ever he has to to get what he wants, in the history books. Any Republican worth their salt can rattle off basic party policy like the answer to an abortion question 100% accurately every single time, because it is tattoo'd on the inside of their eyeballs, but not Trump. Trump has no clue what the party policies are and hasn't learned them in a year of running for office.

As an independent there is no way I could vote for Trump. If R's had given me a half decent candidate I would of voted them over Hillary any day. That is why Trump is doomed. Trump isn't a Republican, Trump is a whateverican, I will say whateverican to be president.

I would mention what rubes do with that based on gravity but I don't want to get banned.

[Hooked]

Oh Clinton did, hugely. Every time I thought Trump hit bottom he managed to scrape down a lil farther. Never seen anything like it.

Its because you don't speak the language of the common man.

[Moralgy]

I'm glad people got to finally see the real Donald Trump. Now I wonder how the polls will react to it.

[kail]

Facts dont matter to Clinton either.

Probably not. Most likely not, my opinion is that she simply wants to win that presidency while Trump suffers from too much delusion or is intentionally playing the audience. What really sucks about these debates is the lack of power that the moderators execute.

Perhaps we should run our debates like America's Got Talent, 3 mods/judges that will X out a candidate in the middle of their speech when they start side-stepping a question. Donald did that amazingly early, his first fucking question.

[Hooked]

Probably not. Most likely not, my opinion is that she simply wants to win that presidency while Trump suffers from too much delusion or is intentionally playing the audience. What really sucks about these debates is the lack of power that the moderators execute.

Perhaps we should run our debates like America's Got Talent, 3 mods/judges that will X out a candidate in the middle of their speech when they start side-stepping a question. Donald did that amazingly early, his first fucking question.

Sounds awesome can they all be conservative moderators?. What you are talking about is fascism. Why did you delete all your emails hillary, answer the question now.

[Floopa]

Most of the polls except CNN (LUL) showed a majority in favour of Trump winning. trump also still holds a narrow lead in the voter polls.