First presidential debate - September 26: Trump vs Hillary

[paralleluniverse]

Clinton's plan only works if you assume that the rich people and big businesses will just shut up and pay more, and not pass on the added taxes on to their customers, or shirt business overseas. That will never happen. Trump is a business man and told her it wont work, he runs businesses and knows that businesses never eat increased taxes and he knows the ways they do it. That makes him much more knowledgeable on how to stop it.

Not true. The effect of tax increases has been widely studied in macroeconomics. The revenue maximizing income tax rate is around 70%.

Bill Clinton hiked taxes, the economy boomed. Obama hiked taxes, unemployment has fallen below 5%. Bush raised taxes and suffered a very slow recovery to the 2001 recession.Trump is a clueless idiot, he doesn't know about anything, let alone the macroeconomic effects of tax policy.

[Allybeboba]

You kidding me? He left the stage as soon as his kids and wife came up on the stage in shame, meanwhile she stayed behind and thanked/talked with the audience along with her husband.

Man, plain ol ignorance much be nice to live with.

You did not see her hobbling???
He was giving interviews with CNN off stage. That is why he left. Now who is ignorant?

[Skroe]

You did not see her hobbling???
He was giving interviews with CNN off stage. That is why he left. Now who is ignorant?

One of our greatest President's was a paraplegic for a decade and change before he was elected.

She didn't hobble. But if she did, what's your point?

[Ausr]

You did not see her hobbling???
He was giving interviews with CNN off stage. That is why he left. Now who is ignorant?

She didn't hobble at all. The only time I saw a Clinton hobble was when an aide thought Bill was going to fall when he went to shake someone's hand. And yes, he eventually went to do CNN interviews to spin his loss but he sure did bolt from that stage.

[Deleted]

Also their is no concrete proof that in the US illegal immigrants have a negative impact on the economy.

Define economy.

[paralleluniverse]

http://www.vox.com/2016/9/26/1306669...ade-fact-check

Donald Trump’s first presidential debate confirmed he has no idea what he’s talking about

Try to imagine yourself as a modern-day Rip Van Winkle awakening after a few years of hibernation. You weren’t following the election news, but you knew it was a big story, and so you tuned in to tonight’s first presidential debate to see what the hubbub was all about.

You’d be confused.

You’d quickly see that Hillary Clinton represents a familiar archetype. She’s been in American politics for a long time. She served as the nation’s top diplomat and as a United States senator. She sponsored bills and was part of diplomatic agreements. She spoke fluently about her ideas on a range of issues. She took some jabs at her opponents, and she was sometimes a little boring and in the weeds.

You would see, in other words, that the Democrats had nominated an experienced politician — it’s what you do.

The other party, by contrast, seems to have done something weird. Their nominee, Donald Trump, seems erratic — peevish, visibly annoyed at being referred to by his first name, lashing out at Rosie O’Donnell for some reason — and mired in controversy. Accused of practicing racial discrimination in his businesses, he says being sued by the federal government is “one of those things” and even though he paid up, there was “no admission of guilt.” Pressed to release his federal income tax returns, he said he can’t because he’s being audited, which really just seems like a confirmation that his returns would be interesting and worth seeing.

But beyond the personal controversies, he rather clearly has no idea what he’s talking about.
Trump doesn’t know much about the economy

Trump explained that he talks about how rich he is “not in a braggadocious way” but because “it's time that this country has somebody running the country who has an idea about money.”

And yet from his very first statement in the debate, Trump revealed a frankly bizarre level of ignorance about economic policy.

Literally the first thing Trump said after thanking the moderator was that “our jobs are fleeing the country” when, in fact, employment has been steadily increasing for years.
Three sentences later, he said the Chinese “are devaluing their currency and there's nobody in our government to fight them,” when, in fact, the Chinese are trying to prop up the value of their currency in the face of a massive investor exodus from Chinese real estate.
He also said the Chinese “are using our country as a piggy bank to rebuild China,” which isn’t even how piggy banks work, much less the US-Chinese economic relationship.
He said that Mexico is feasting on American manufacturing and “building the bigger plants in the world” when, in fact, Tesla is currently building the biggest factory in the world right in California. The existing biggest factory in the world is also in the United States, and is where Boeing jumbo jets are built. No. 3 is a Mitsubishi plant located in Illinois.

One could continue with the factual specifics here, but the overarching theme is pretty clear: The Republicans nominated someone who doesn’t know anything about his signature issue. Trump lambasted Clinton for her involvement in NAFTA, which he said had devastated American manufacturing, but US manufacturing output has risen about 50 percent since NAFTA passed. And while it’s not true that the world’s biggest factories are opening in Mexico, it is absolutely true that both the Boeing factory and the Mitsubishi factory depend critically on international trade for their viability.
Trump’s trade hang-up is itself weird

What’s particularly odd about this is that while Trump doesn’t know anything about trade policy and isn’t in possession of any relevant facts about American manufacturing, he seems to see trade policy as the only economic issue worth discussing. You would never know from Trump’s discourse that the vast majority of Americans work in jobs related to domestic service provision — they work in hospitals and restaurants and schools and stores working with nearby customers, not internationally traded manufacturing.

A particularly vexing aspect of this is that the GOP nominee’s core business expertise is in real estate development. Under the circumstances, you might think he would have something useful and insightful to say about house building or some other adjacent sector of the economy. But he no more talked about construction than he talked about health care.

He did briefly mention that “our energy policies are a disaster,” but energy prices have been falling for years. The brief digression into being wrong about energy was immediately followed by a repetition of the idea that the country is suffering a disastrous outflow of jobs to foreign countries. “All you have to do is look at Michigan and look at Ohio,” he said, “and look at all of these places where so many of their jobs and their companies are just leaving.”

Ohio has a 4.7 percent unemployment rate, and in Michigan it’s 4.5 percent. These states have problems, no doubt, but they are strange examples of the economic devastation wrought by trade.
Trump has a lot of odd ideas

But let’s go back to our newly awakened debate watcher. A very curious aspect of the debate from the standpoint of someone who hasn’t been following this campaign for a while would be the repeated instances in which Trump was accused of believing something crazy and then he angrily denied it.

“Donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese,” Clinton said. He protested. “I did not. I do not say that.” But it turns out he did.
“You even at one time suggested that you would try to negotiate down the national debt of the United States,” Clinton charged, to which Trump flatly replied, “Wrong.” But it turns out he did.

Trump also described in some detail a wild conspiracy theory in which the entire economy is being held up exclusively by a stock market bubble whose existence, in turn, depends entirely on the Fed keeping interest rates low. And he says the Fed is doing this not because it’s good for the economy but because it’s doing “very political things.”

He offered no evidence for this.

It also seems clear that Trump has a weird problem with admitting error. Confronted with his past statements about climate and debt, Trump just pretended he never said them. Confronted with his lack of past statements opposing the invasion of Iraq, he concocted a bizarre story about having opposed the war in secret phone conversations with the conservative pundit Sean Hannity. He admitted no error in the Obama birth certificate imbroglio and closed the debate pursuing a years-old feud with comedian Rosie O’Donnell rather than apologizing for past intemperate language about women.
Something strange is going on here

On one level, “Donald Trump doesn’t know what he’s talking about” is the ultimate dog-bites-man story of the 2016 election.

But that’s why I think it’s useful to try to purge yourself of your existing knowledge of the campaign. If you just tuned in Monday night expecting to see two well-qualified and broadly competent candidates discussing the issues in some kind of recognizable shape, you would find yourself sorely disappointed.

The conceit of the Trump campaign is that he’s a smart, business-savvy outsider who can fix things. But he clearly has no idea how to fix things. He doesn’t even seem to have a grasp of what the problems are.

If you were just tuning in to this campaign, you would find yourself hung up on a pretty obvious question — why did the Republican Party nominate a guy who clearly doesn’t know what he’s talking about? It’s a good question.

[Allybeboba]

Not true. The effect of tax increases has been widely studied in macroeconomics. The revenue maximizing income tax rate is around 70%.

Bill Clinton hiked taxes, the economy boomed. Obama hiked taxes, unemployment has fallen below 5%. Bush raised taxes and suffered a very slow recovery to the 2001 recession.Trump is a clueless idiot, he doesn't know about anything, let alone the macroeconomic effects of tax policy.

The reason Bill Clinton's economy boomed was because of the .com bubble. That bubble just happened to burst during Bush's reign just as the housing problem did. Bill Clinton just happened to the be in the right place at the right time.

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http://www.vox.com/2016/9/26/1306669...ade-fact-check

Funny that the Dems say we have been gaining jobs yet we have 93 million Americans out of work.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...27-labor-force

Numbers can easily skewed to fit whatever narrative you want my friend. Just take whatever you read with a grain of salt.

[Deleted]

The ''people'' don't want to work on farms, a farmer tries that (google it) and a great number of people left before lunch break.

For what pay?

Also that was your argument, you argued that they didn't pay taxes and undercut american workers. To me this means that they do the following
1) cost the US money by virtue of being their, this argument doesn't hold up since their is no numbers to back up this claim

Yes there is.
Its pretty much a wash, and for specific subsets:

Shortly after arrival in the United States, immigrant men—especially recent cohorts—experience a disadvantage relative to native-born men in terms of the probability of being employed. However, for cohorts of immigrants arriving since the 1970s, after this initial period of adjustment in which their probability of employment is lower, they became slightly more likely to be employed than their native-born peers. The higher employment rate among immigrant men is mainly represented in the population with education of a high school degree or less

meaning its actually very likely that the low skill segments of society is actively being hurt by this.

2) undercutting wages: This goes back to the economy argument because your assuming total overlap and that 1 illegal immigrant hired = 1 less american hired. It could be by virtue of spending illegals create jobs as well, again your argument doesn't hold up because its based on ''gut'' feeling like every other right wing argument.

(if) an employed migrant takes one job from the natives, and do add Fractions of jobs back in increased services and such,
That equation can never go positive, you get that right?

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One of our greatest President's was a paraplegic for a decade and change before he was elected.

She didn't hobble. But if she did, what's your point?

Think the lying is and was the problem.

[Ausr]

90 mins of debate and all I learned about trump is he appears to have a respiratory condition.

Clearly unfit to be president!

[Bollocks]

The reason Bill Clinton's economy boomed was because of the .com bubble. That bubble just happened to burst during Bush's reign just as the housing problem did. Bill Clinton just happened to the be in the right place at the right time.

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Funny that the Dems say we have been gaining jobs yet we have 93 million Americans out of work.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...27-labor-force

Numbers can easily skewed to fit whatever narrative you want my friend. Just take whatever you read with a grain of salt.

[Allybeboba]

One of our greatest President's was a paraplegic for a decade and change before he was elected.

She didn't hobble. But if she did, what's your point?

We have people bragging about she actually stood for a whole 90 minutes. WOW!! We are talking about electing the leader of the free world and she needs help up one single step. Our president needs to be healthy.

And FDR's disability was kept secret from the public. He also died in office. He also was younger than her. He also served more than two terms. He is not a good example.

[caervek]

Having watched the debate, I still don't like either off them but between the two I prefer Trump. They are both ****s but at least Trump is openly a **** whereas Hillary is blatantly a **** but tries to hide being a **** and thinks that she's really clever and people don't see shes a ****.

[Deleted]

Unless I'm terribly mistaken that is neither inflation nor population adjusted.
Now i'm no longer sure what your point is.

[LilSaihah]

Why is Trump beating around the bush when it came to the racial relationships situation in the USA? I thought he was praised for speaking his mind, but he clearly was trying to avoid making derogatory about black people, while still pointing fingers in that direction, but just didn't dare to say it outright. He was being dishonest and showing political correctness, a bit disappointing for the man that is supposed to end political correctness?

He was playing softball this debate and was not planning to play his trump cards.

His goal at this point in the election is not to actually win arguments. What he needs to do to expand his voter base is knock down the Literally Hitler strawman that the MSM/DNC have built; that has the chance of significantly cutting into his negatives and providing him a decisive lead. Being too argumentative would likely undermine this goal, and especially pushing any kind of blame on any element of the populace would.

Dropping massive bombs will be more effective during the second and third debates, simply by being closer to the date of the election.

[Allybeboba]

Does that chart take inflation into account?

[May90]

I'm surprised anyone at all actually thinks Trump won the debates. I mean, pretty much regardless of your views and beliefs, you had to notice that the guy hasn't answered a single question directly, rambled about completely irrelevant to the discussion stuff, interrupted his opponent and even the moderator, couldn't keep calm... Ah well, I suppose his biggest fans will say that he wins the debate even if he pisses on the floor at the end of it. :/

Hopefully by the end of the third debate, at least, a fraction of those people will realize who they were supporting. Or maybe they are on his level themselves, so they will never realize anything.

[Allybeboba]

He was playing softball this debate and was not planning to play his trump cards.

His goal at this point in the election is not to actually win arguments. What he needs to do to expand his voter base is knock down the Literally Hitler strawman that the MSM/DNC have built; that has the chance of significantly cutting into his negatives and providing him a decisive lead. Being too argumentative would likely undermine this goal, and especially pushing any kind of blame on any element of the populace would.

Dropping massive bombs will be more effective during the second and third debates, simply by being closer to the date of the election.

Second debate is VPs. Third will be them again. She will be "resting"(MIA) again the week before getting her scripted answers ready again.

[ati87]

Define economy.

Google it, read a book, watch and read the news.

The reason Bill Clinton's economy boomed was because of the .com bubble. That bubble just happened to burst during Bush's reign just as the housing problem did. Bill Clinton just happened to the be in the right place at the right time.

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Funny that the Dems say we have been gaining jobs yet we have 93 million Americans out of work.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...27-labor-force

Numbers can easily skewed to fit whatever narrative you want my friend. Just take whatever you read with a grain of salt.

in the end it did ''boom'' and he left Bush a excellent economy that Bush manages to destroy by multiply means. Even if you can't blame Bush for the .com bubble you can blame him for the 2 wars he started withouth paying for it and cutting taxes at the same t

Also you can't blame Bush for the .com bubble but you can blame Obama for the banking crisis that started while Bush was in office?

For what pay?

Yes there is.
Its pretty much a wash, and for specific subsets:

meaning its actually very likely that the low skill segments of society is actively being hurt by this.


(if) an employed migrant takes one job from the natives, and do add Fractions of jobs back in increased services and such,
That equation can never go positive, you get that right?

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Think the lying is and was the problem.

And if you look at more then 1 internet site you will come to conclusion that their is no conclusion of the effects of illegal immigrants. So yea gut feeling arguments that involves allot of fear mongering, fantasies and assumptions to fit your narratieve.

[Skroe]

We have people bragging about she actually stood for a whole 90 minutes. WOW!! We are talking about electing the leader of the free world and she needs help up one single step. Our president needs to be healthy.

And FDR's disability was kept secret from the public. He also died in office. He also was younger than her. He also served more than two terms. He is not a good example.

So in 30 years, will an Iraq War veteran who lost both legs and an arm be qualified or unqualified to be President?

The organ the President of the United States makes most use of is their brain. That's the only thing that matters.

[Celista]

90 mins of debate and all I learned about trump is he appears to have a respiratory condition.

By "respiratory condition" I assume you mean "coke problem".