Language spoken by the Nightborne

[Mace]

According to DonAdams: https://twitter.com/_DonAdams/status/779114403153063938

it's a unique dialect of ancient elvish - we haven't actually given a name for it

My question is, I wonder how close it is to Darnassian. It's times like this I wish perhaps warcraft had an expert like Tolkein writing it, he was the language genius. Ofc, accurately, he presents the langauge of the immortal elves unchanged in the millennia of their time. I get a sense he really carefully captures how a very long lived sentient race would be. Details lilke that made them feel so realistic in a way I've been craving for warcraft racial lore to be. But it takes a lot of pain staking time, research, and learning to get right, not just a creative genius flare for telling a good story.

With both education, and high intelligence, there should be no change in language spoken by either the Kalimdor Night elves or the Nightborne, seeing both were the same original elves and originate from Suramar. As a dialect of the original ancient elvish - which I presume is Darnassian????? I don't think there really should exist a variation or if it does, it should be very small.

Subsequent children born, would be taught the language of their parents too, and being educated, with all the language and books, it should remain unchanged. Both Night elves and Nightborne were 100% night elven societies when they went into isolation, and both have the same people still alive. Most of the druids have been asleep for thousands of years anyway, only the females have been around the whole time amongst the night elves, and amongst those who became nightborne, even less has changed, less variation, no devaiation.

Unless Suramar originally spoke a dialect of ancient elvish? Also I thought Darnassian was the original language of the Elves - i.e. the Ancient Elvish, again, I don't see why or how supposedly intelligent beings, with learning and particular to attention would have experienced a language change.

I'll be very disappointed if blizz keep making unrealistic changes to language just because of gameplay. They should never have bothered to try and create an undead language, or make different groups who should be able to understand each other, all of a sudden not understand each other - they should just simply not allow communication between alliance and horde...and then try to make the lore as logical and realistic as possible.

Even Thalassian being largely different from Darnassian is also a stretch, only a handful of generations have passed, and while the High elves were subject to far more outside influence then any of the night elven groups locked way in the 3 main locations were, still they were educated, and highly intelligent too, the language change should be slight. Night elves and nightborne should be able to understand each other with only slight variations in the language, certain idioms and phrases different, different weight on certain words, but also key phrases different , but in the same language. And both should be able to understand Thalassian.

Is this something else gameplay ruined?

[Friendlyimmolation]

Is this something else gameplay ruined?

No, its a rant about how Nightborne are not carbon copies of Night elves with magic capabilities mixed in.

If you close people off for 10 thousand years, they are not going to be just like people who were not.

[Aquamonkey]

It's about as different as Thalassian is from Darnassian.

So it's not Darnassian?
Correct. It's an offshoot, similar to Thalassian. (_DonAdams)

[WintersLegion]

No, its a rant about how Nightborne are not carbon copies of Night elves with magic capabilities mixed in.

If you close people off for 10 thousand years, they are not going to be just like people who were not.

Yeah it's just like how American English and British English have changed.

[Rhlor]

According to DonAdams: https://twitter.com/_DonAdams/status/779114403153063938

My question is, I wonder how close it is to Darnassian. It's times like this I wish perhaps warcraft had an expert like Tolkein writing it, he was the language genius. Ofc, accurately, he presents the langauge of the immortal elves unchanged in the millennia of their time. I get a sense he really carefully captures how a very long lived sentient race would be. Details lilke that made them feel so realistic in a way I've been craving for warcraft racial lore to be. But it takes a lot of pain staking time, research, and learning to get right, not just a creative genius flare for telling a good story.

With both education, and high intelligence, there should be no change in language spoken by either the Kalimdor Night elves or the Nightborne, seeing both were the same original elves and originate from Suramar. As a dialect of the original ancient elvish - which I presume is Darnassian????? I don't think there really should exist a variation or if it does, it should be very small.

Subsequent children born, would be taught the language of their parents too, and being educated, with all the language and books, it should remain unchanged. Both Night elves and Nightborne were 100% night elven societies when they went into isolation, and both have the same people still alive. Most of the druids have been asleep for thousands of years anyway, only the females have been around the whole time amongst the night elves, and amongst those who became nightborne, even less has changed, less variation, no devaiation.

Unless Suramar originally spoke a dialect of ancient elvish? Also I thought Darnassian was the original language of the Elves - i.e. the Ancient Elvish, again, I don't see why or how supposedly intelligent beings, with learning and particular to attention would have experienced a language change.

I'll be very disappointed if blizz keep making unrealistic changes to language just because of gameplay. They should never have bothered to try and create an undead language, or make different groups who should be able to understand each other, all of a sudden not understand each other - they should just simply not allow communication between alliance and horde...and then try to make the lore as logical and realistic as possible.

Even Thalassian being largely different from Darnassian is also a stretch, only a handful of generations have passed, and while the High elves were subject to far more outside influence then any of the night elven groups locked way in the 3 main locations were, still they were educated, and highly intelligent too, the language change should be slight. Night elves and nightborne should be able to understand each other with only slight variations in the language, certain idioms and phrases different, different weight on certain words, but also key phrases different , but in the same language. And both should be able to understand Thalassian.

Is this something else gameplay ruined?

the difference between languages is actually very small most of the words are similar and phonetics.

as Spanish and Portuguese

[Villager720]

Yeah it's just like how American English and British English have changed.

x30 + not letting us talk across the pond.

[Ethenil]

If you seal off the population of a city for ten thousand years, even if they are long-lived the language will change.

Imagine a tree:

Ancient Kaldorei, spoken with regional variations all around the Empire, slowly evolves into Darnassian of sundered Kalimdor;

Suramari, which was sealed off for ten millennia, possibly the most similar to ancient kaldorei;

Even the dialect of Val'Sharah may have changed a bit (considering they were in contact with Kalimdor) or changed a lot (if they weren't);

Thalassian, probably the most different of these, due to contact with many other never-before-seen cultures and races;

Nazja, probably a completely different language at this point, spoken by the Naga;

The Satyrs possibly speak a mix of ancient kaldorei and eredun;

And well, that's it, I think, bar perhaps the language of the fal'dorei.

[Mace]

Yeah it's just like how American English and British English have changed.

I feel this is probably spot on.
@Aquamonkey we don't know how different it is, that's what I'm wondering. Don doesn't give detail he is saying like Thalassian is an offshoot, so this one is. He isn't also saying that it is exactly the same degree of offshoot as Thalassian is.
@Rhlor spanish and portuguese also makes sense, but I think WintersLegion's response makes the most sense, when I think about it, all factors considering, the difference has to be small, @Friendlyimmolation is right when he says couped up in a city that long, they have experienced less change, if anything Darnassian should be the one that is a variation, but it should only be a slight variation as we have the same people still alive, and they are both educated and highly intelligent, the language shouldn't in thieroy have changed much.

Gameplay always trumps lore, so if they become playable, we shall se.

- - - Updated - - -

If you seal off the population of a city for ten thousand years, even if they are long-lived the language will change.

Imagine a tree:

Ancient Kaldorei, spoken with regional variations all around the Empire, slowly evolves into Darnassian of sundered Kalimdor;

Suramari, which was sealed off for ten millennia, possibly the most similar to ancient kaldorei;

Even the dialect of Val'Sharah may have changed a bit (considering they were in contact with Kalimdor) or changed a lot (if they weren't);

Thalassian, probably the most different of these, due to contact with many other never-before-seen cultures and races;

Nazja, probably a completely different language at this point, spoken by the Naga;

The Satyrs possibly speak a mix of ancient kaldorei and eredun;

And well, that's it, I think, bar perhaps the language of the fal'dorei.

Looking at Tolkein's example, and he a language expert, the language of the Elves does not change. Being highly intelligent and very long lived, especially with education, the language shouldn't change, espeically sealed off in a city or in a forest,.. remember all 3 night elven groups were in isolation. The night elves of Suramar, the survivors at Hyjal and the Highborne of Eldre'thalas - all 3 were in isolation. It makes no sense that say Eldre'thalas highborne language wouldn't change, but Suramar's would? Given both groups were the only cities that survived, intact with their knowledge, books, scrolls etc with the individuals being alive for 10k years.

Unless the highly intelligent attribute is only on paper, something they suddenly lose every time we see them in action. They should have been able to keep the language clean. The quests really do an excellent job of showing you a society where nothing has changed in thousands of years - this is how I expected the original Night elves to be shown like, one guy gets his stuff out for viewings only once every several hundred years. They are portrayed as sticklers for tradition. Their bodies may have changed to a new race, but thsese ones have kept the ancient kaldorei culture very much alive and are sticklers for it. Their language wouldn't have changed, in fact, they're the type who would strike me as being mortified that you spelt something wrong or did not say it in the proper way. Again, while I find I'm loving the detail they put into Suramar, I wish they had the sort of thoroughness in their works/research the likes of Tolkein, Jordan or Martin put into their works -

[Tenjen]

Does not matter how much they care and how rigid they are about spelling and pronunciation even if they are long lived. Social and cultural change will incur changes, especially over 10,000 years. Ever so slight ones that build up over time or due to changing perspective because of the latter social and cultural changes. You can't retain something if your entire perspective has shifted due to life experiences and adaptation.

And the quests did nothing of the sort in surumar. It shows a city which has adapted around magic and the night well completely in every aspect to the core of their beings and every facet of life.

[Mehrunes]

How is this something gameplay ruined, exactly? They speak common for the most part so that players can understand them. And when they say things like "Ishnal Toreth" it's for flavor and because of that would remain untranslated even for Night Elf players. Just like "Lok'tar ogar" is still seen as "Lok'tar ogar" for Orc players. The difference is we know what "Lok'tar ogar" means. They could be speaking Darnassian, Thalassian or Swahili. You wouldn't know it in-game without them clarifying the lore.

And really, Tolkien is your example of unchanging Elven language? Good choice right here. Because the Elf language in Middle Earth has changed a lot. As you said, Tolkien was a language expert. Which is why he knows how languages work and to make it more believable he created a naturalistic language. I.e. one that evolves. There are anachronisms in the language, etymology of words showing how the words themselves or their usage has changed. He created a whole language tree (two version even, from what I recall), with multiple languages on different levels of division, and multiple dialects for the main ones. So I'm not sure what you're looking at but it's not Tolkien. Maybe it's tolkien.

[TheImperios]

An archaic form of Darnassian derived from its upper-class register.

[ati87]

certain words can be different depending on the region you live, add that no language over the past thousand years has stayed the same you can assume that the nightborne will have their own language at this point.

[Gurluas]

I feel this is probably spot on.
@Aquamonkey we don't know how different it is, that's what I'm wondering. Don doesn't give detail he is saying like Thalassian is an offshoot, so this one is. He isn't also saying that it is exactly the same degree of offshoot as Thalassian is.
@Rhlor spanish and portuguese also makes sense, but I think WintersLegion's response makes the most sense, when I think about it, all factors considering, the difference has to be small, @Friendlyimmolation is right when he says couped up in a city that long, they have experienced less change, if anything Darnassian should be the one that is a variation, but it should only be a slight variation as we have the same people still alive, and they are both educated and highly intelligent, the language shouldn't in thieroy have changed much.

Gameplay always trumps lore, so if they become playable, we shall se.

- - - Updated - - -


Looking at Tolkein's example, and he a language expert, the language of the Elves does not change. Being highly intelligent and very long lived, especially with education, the language shouldn't change, espeically sealed off in a city or in a forest,.. remember all 3 night elven groups were in isolation. The night elves of Suramar, the survivors at Hyjal and the Highborne of Eldre'thalas - all 3 were in isolation. It makes no sense that say Eldre'thalas highborne language wouldn't change, but Suramar's would? Given both groups were the only cities that survived, intact with their knowledge, books, scrolls etc with the individuals being alive for 10k years.

Unless the highly intelligent attribute is only on paper, something they suddenly lose every time we see them in action. They should have been able to keep the language clean. The quests really do an excellent job of showing you a society where nothing has changed in thousands of years - this is how I expected the original Night elves to be shown like, one guy gets his stuff out for viewings only once every several hundred years. They are portrayed as sticklers for tradition. Their bodies may have changed to a new race, but thsese ones have kept the ancient kaldorei culture very much alive and are sticklers for it. Their language wouldn't have changed, in fact, they're the type who would strike me as being mortified that you spelt something wrong or did not say it in the proper way. Again, while I find I'm loving the detail they put into Suramar, I wish they had the sort of thoroughness in their works/research the likes of Tolkein, Jordan or Martin put into their works -

Tolkien Elves are more akin to nature spirits. They're not the same as Wow elves, who are much more normal humanoids.

As for whether this is something gameplay ruined, it is.
Lorewise a Thalassian and Darnassian speaker is able to understand each other just fine.

But for gameplay reasons Horde and Alliance should not understand each other. It's the same reason why Forsaken have forgotten Common.

[Tenjen]

not "ruined" so much as segregated. There are story and gameplay elements that simply don't stream well together.

[Kalcheus]

Does not matter how much they care and how rigid they are about spelling and pronunciation even if they are long lived. Social and cultural change will incur changes, especially over 10,000 years. Ever so slight ones that build up over time or due to changing perspective because of the latter social and cultural changes. You can't retain something if your entire perspective has shifted due to life experiences and adaptation.

Unless you're Pandaren floating on a turtle

[Tenjen]

Unless you're Pandaren floating on a turtle

while some change would occur (such as accents differing), their lifestyle, culture and habits pretty much remained the same on the turtle. Under the same social context and living conditions, the changes would be minor over time. (though realistically, 10,000 years should aggregate a certain level of change)

maybe they were all just too drunk.

[Mace]

Tolkien Elves are more akin to nature spirits. They're not the same as Wow elves, who are much more normal humanoids.

As for whether this is something gameplay ruined, it is.
Lorewise a Thalassian and Darnassian speaker is able to understand each other just fine.

But for gameplay reasons Horde and Alliance should not understand each other. It's the same reason why Forsaken have forgotten Common.

I think there was a point in time when blizzard was saying they couldn't understand each other at all, and the community felt it was ridiculous, I don't know if they retracted from that later on, but eventually the explanation was that gameplay needs them not talking to each other, but I have never liked them changing lore of language of the races to bend to gameplay needs when the story clearly shows much interaction -- i mean for crying out loud the undead are undead humans, no way they cannot speak common - if you get my meaning. Just simply not allow them to communicate, you don't have to have a lore reason for everything in game. I was also quite upset when they made hearthstones a lore thing, and now i notice resurrections too are? this is what I mean, you have to have changes for gaemplay reasons, but they don't necessarily have to follow or be in the lore too, it dilutes the lore whichh i usually find quite enjoyable and like to think it's because it's good. Hate been proven or shown wrong.. but must accept what i'm shown right?

as for Tolkein elves, yes we know they are different, and I certainly would not say they are akin to nature spirits, have you read Tolkein? The Tolkein reference is with respect to the integrity of language, Tolkein was an Oxford Professor of English, and he designed the Elvish tongue and script for his fantasy genre, and it is his works this entire fantasy genre is largely based off of, the whole immortal elves thing, it is important to note how he portrays langauge in long lived species, doing your research given factors like high intelligence, and the same people being around - the language won't change.

You know we have to factor that these Elves aren't like humans. They don't have the same weaknesses or failings, they may share some, but if in your story you say they are immortal, or virtually immortal, highly intelligent, paint them as educated etc, it becomes much harder to believe there language has changed.

Sure if several generations have passed, lots of cross cultural influences, weaker minds that forget and open characters that embrace change - sure, yes language will change. But not if you describe your group as being the same generation, highly intelligent, locked away in isolation, not emracing of other cultures or change etc... and obviously intelligent enough to remember, recall and have a desire to do things just so! Then it becomes quite a tall order to think language would change.

And if you say it changes, okay, but for me it would be a change because of gameplay not because of logic, sense or lore - and that is IF the language is revealed to be very different IF they become playable, and that's a big If. If they do not become playable, then why even bother give it a different language? Why on earth is it not the same? Why do I bother anyway? a bit stupid of me to want wow to be perfect, it's not my product, and things are't always done, in fact are often done not because they are perfect or accurate to reality, but beause they're expedient for the game system.. still getting a bit invested in this often means I like to see it flawless, and i'm feeling that is so pointless too

[Selastan]

How is this something gameplay ruined, exactly? They speak common for the most part so that players can understand them. And when they say things like "Ishnal Toreth" it's for flavor and because of that would remain untranslated even for Night Elf players. Just like "Lok'tar ogar" is still seen as "Lok'tar ogar" for Orc players. The difference is we know what "Lok'tar ogar" means. They could be speaking Darnassian, Thalassian or Swahili. You wouldn't know it in-game without them clarifying the lore.

English isn't common. EVERYTHING is translated for the player. There is a great example of untranslated spoken common in the game; ]

[Aquamonkey]

English isn't common. EVERYTHING is translated for the player. There is a great example of untranslated spoken common in the game;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQWASFoEfPc

Common is basically English. However, there is an ancient tongue which differs and has a different script which leads to some differences in Common from English.

[Ethenil]

Liu Lang stuff happened only a 800 years ago, guys, as per Chronicles. If we consider that in the WoW universe language changes slower, and that perhaps the pandaren of the Wandering Isle had a reason to maintain a similar language, it makes sense for them to understand Pandarian of Pandaria.