Why would you bring a DK besides grip?

[farza]

the DK will not be top dog everywhere. If you believe this, then you you need to wake up, wont happen.

UH DK will shine in specific situations, for instance: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ht&spec=Unholy
check the ranking of the DK compared to other people in his/her raid. yes, they are doing well there.

The you can check ursoc, boss is ST https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done
again those DK in their raid are doing top 5 dps.

I am afraid the class is doing well. Not the top dog single target but absolutely one of the best with bosses that have adds.

again, in case my point was not understood. DKs will not be able to be top single target and top aoe class.
If we look at the logs, the DKs has a very good place in raids, top dog in aoe, top 5 in ST.

Seriously what else can one ask for?


note 1:
if you are in top guilds where being best matters, you are expected to play the best class. Those type of players dont complain about a single class, they have 4-5 classes ready. They play the class that does well in all situations.

In any case for this week race, I doubt top 10 guilds will run with no DK.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#boss=1841 here is statistics of average DPS of each spec in the game.
We are on the 12 place. Not in top 5.
On aoe fight like Il'gynoth we are on 4 place. It's the middle of the pack, yeah.
But we are the least mobile class, don't we?

[Pepehands]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#boss=1841 here is statistics of average DPS of each spec in the game.
We are on the 12 place. Not in top 5.
On aoe fight like Il'gynoth we are on 4 place. It's the middle of the pack, yeah.
But we are the least mobile class, don't we?

Yeah man, and lets see that same chart at the end of next week... Say adios to our top 12, we gonna be rock bottom.

As I said, is not that we did not get a buff, but everyone else did. Everyone is going up, we just gonna be there like shit in water.

[farza]

Yeah man, and lets see that same chart at the end of next week... Say adios to our top 12, we gonna be rock bottom.

As I said, is not that we did not get a buff, but everyone else did. Everyone is going up, we just gonna be there like shit in water.

We can replace Rogues, wwmonks, DH in mythic+ (if there are no rogues, wwmonks and DH ) as DPS.

[Deleted]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#boss=1841 ?

I like how frost DK and frost Mage are both chillin' near the bottom.

[Deleted]

We can replace Rogues, wwmonks, DH in mythic+ (if there are no rogues, wwmonks and DH ) as DPS.

Think most people in this thread are talking about raids. Mythic+ doesn't really matter that much, since we have fine AoE.

And we can't shine on ANY fight in EN. The damage on bloods on Il'gynoth is pointless, who gives a shit about that dmg. Most of the time 50% of the raid have to wait for them to close to the eye before you can start dps. While top DK did maybe 360k on that fight, top hunter did 430k. We will be complete shit next week. If we want shit to be better for DK's we HAVE to complain.

[Pepehands]

If we want shit to be better for DK's we HAVE to complain.

YES!!! That what I have said few replies ago!

Everyone is complaning and whining and Blizz listening to them! Again, check SP and DH! They were going to get a huge nerf hammer as arms warriors. So they cried alot and some nerfs were reverted.

We DKs seems too comfortable and proud, but as I said, let see by the end of this week the beatifull 75% chart. For sure you gonna see some topics here saying how shitty we are...

[Kerathyl]

I feel that the DK class is often weak because the players have gotten used to and sort of accepted our mediocre/low position on the charts. We aren't as vocal about not being top tier as many other classes.
Meanwhile even while fire is OP as hell mages are still up in arms to get frost and arcane buffed to the same level.
Blizzard does in fact respond to whining to some extent.

[Christan]

shit-tier in frost, OK in UH and mediocre in Blood. That is on itself a problem.

didn't frost get a buff mid week, like a crazy one? any logs from before that are not reliable.

also, i prefer a well played DK, to a pala or BRM healing them atm. only things better than DK atm are well geared guardians / warriors, and blood IS comparable to the new hero class DH, which is apparently overtuned to the point of needing nerfs (yeah all tanks got nerfed)

but a well played DK i've always been able to relax around because of deathstrike healing more when taken more damage. sure they're a little spikey, but unless its a bad blood who spams DS on cd, they are better than BRM by far, ohh by so far, makes brm look like a squishy dps by comparison.


stop selling dk's so short lol, lets see how the buffs work out over this week?

Frost
Remorseless Winter damage increased by 50%.
Obliterate damage increased by 19%.
Frost Strike damage increased by 12%.
Howling Blast damage increased by 10%.
Frostscythe (Talent) damage increased by 13%.
Frozen Pulse (Talent) damage increased by 11%.
Breath of Sindragosa (Talent) damage increased by 17%.

that they needed those buffs means that you were right about frost, but look at spriest buffs,

Shadow

Mind Sear damage increased by 80% and Insanity generation increased by 50%.
Mind Flay damage increased by 20%.
Mind Spike damage increased by 28%.
Void Ray maximum stacks reduced to 4.
Developers’ Notes: Given the damage increase to Mind Sear, Mind Flay, and Mind Spike, this still results in an overall increase to the value of the talent.
Voidform stacks no longer increase while Dispersion is active.

apparently Spriest were in a worse spot than frost DK?

basically, not only frost DK's were "shit-tier" with as many classes getting buffed, and classes like DH WWmonk etc, getting nerfed, it's going to even out.

[Casterbridge]

Why do you guys think Blizzard will stop tweaking after these changes?

As it stands before the changes for all intents and purposes UH was okay, now we have to see what shakes up after the changes and were things fall at the end of the week. If DKs are bottom tier as everyone suggests and the discrepancy is bad then go to blizzard and make the case.

Saying the sky is falling without actually looking outside does no one any good at this point.

[Deleted]

If we want shit to be better for DK's we HAVE to complain.

That's unknightly.

Let's instead write a long and detailed letter to the head honcho calling him a man of less repute and son of a woman of ill habits.

[Deleted]

didn't frost get a buff mid week, like a crazy one? any logs from before that are not reliable.

also, i prefer a well played DK, to a pala or BRM healing them atm. only things better than DK atm are well geared guardians / warriors, and blood IS comparable to the new hero class DH, which is apparently overtuned to the point of needing nerfs (yeah all tanks got nerfed)

but a well played DK i've always been able to relax around because of deathstrike healing more when taken more damage. sure they're a little spikey, but unless its a bad blood who spams DS on cd, they are better than BRM by far, ohh by so far, makes brm look like a squishy dps by comparison.


stop selling dk's so short lol, lets see how the buffs work out over this week?



that they needed those buffs means that you were right about frost, but look at spriest buffs,

apparently Spriest were in a worse spot than frost DK?

basically, not only frost DK's were "shit-tier" with as many classes getting buffed, and classes like DH WWmonk etc, getting nerfed, it's going to even out.

If you think the buffs to frost evens them out to other classes, you clearly lack knowledge of the current dps situation.
Frost is in the ULTIMATE shit situation concerning raids. They're bottom of the bottom. Priests weren't even close to being as bad as frost DK's. But because the Shadow Priest community went complete APESHIT, Blizzard did something about it. So if we want changes, if we want to be in a better situation, we have to complain and voice our worries for the class.

- - - Updated - - -

That's unknightly.

Let's instead write a long and detailed letter to the head honcho calling him a man of less repute and son of a woman of ill habits.

Mighty fine idea sir.

[MrTastix]

I think with demon hunter nerfs death knights are fine (even after the latest hotfix DH's are still being nerfed overall). We have more general utility than demon hunters and will pull similar numbers (possibly more in AoE now, which we were already competitive for).

Unless you a top 100 guild composition doesn't really matter compared to bringing skilled players. If all raids wanted from their melee was damage then they need to dump everything but rogues and paladins (which I'm considering changing to for my guild, personally - they have more support, too).

[Christan]

If you think the buffs to frost evens them out to other classes, you clearly lack knowledge of the current dps situation.

actually spriests got nerfed hard, (top percentile) and buffed crazily(average player, and for aoe) problem was spriest went from being below UH DK, to being 3rd for top 99 percentile because of abusing an artifact trait with a talent

but i was talking about buffs to frost, in conjunction with nerfs to other classes

Havoc

Throw Glaive damage reduced by 30%.
Fel Mastery (Talent) damage bonus to Fel Rush reduced to 30%.
Bloodlet (Talent) now deals 100% of initial Throw Glaive damage.
Fury of the Illidari (Artifact Ability) damage reduced by 20%.
Note: See below for for additional PvP tuning adjustments to Fury of the Illidari.
Balanced Blades (Artifact Trait) damage bonus to Blade Dance reduced to 3% per target.

like that
i was more talking about DK's being brought in line with other classes, because ones that needed buffs, got buffs, ones that needed nerfs, got nerfs (except for arms war they really need nerf)

also you can't compare a class that has 1 dps spec to one that has two, yes spriest was doing better than frost, but not UH for the top 75 percentile of players, for last week, not last 2 weeks.

as of last week / 75%, frost DK's still have frost mages, and affl locks BELOW them. so nope, not the ultimate shit situation

as of the massive buff mind sear got, it was because it was literally so bad, you would tab dot, and ignore that spell completely, it wasn't just the worst aoe in game, it was garbage. but hey remorseless winter, which was already better, still got a 50% buff.

now, since talking about the massive change in ranking for spriest from 75% to 99%, lets look at frost for the last week.

99% frost dk's are above destro and affl locks, frost mages, and ele shaman.
and the hotpatch was only a couple of days ago. meaning, doing last week, means some of that data was pre-buff for frost.

someone doesn't know the current dps situation

but while frost isn't top end, there will be people near the bottom, but with 2-5 specs worse off than frost, based off partially pre-buff data, it's CERTAINLY not the worst.
(i.e. if they buff the bottom tier, to the top, then the middle becomes the new bottom, and gogo FoTM players whining about AK/AP not being shared)

also if you are a 99 percentile frost DK, you will be in second place compared to the 75 percentile players, ofc that means you have to play better than them 261,799 dps vs a 75% asn rogue third on logs, 261k as well-- 75 to 99 is an extreme difference, just pointing out not all is lost, depending on what guild you are in, if you are a GOOD player, and the others are...we might be able to mythic raid--post nerfs---
you will still do better than many of them.


no help though if you are average playing with average people, or top player who plays only with top players, but if you are a good player who plays / pugs / whatever with average players, you should do fine. (yeah it shouldn't be that way but there has to be a bottom, sucks one of a DK's two specs is at the bottom, but classes with multiple dps specs should have one closer to the bottom, and classes with only one dps spec should be mid to top. in my opinion.

[goriander]

Honestly if you are talking about raids, considering how DKs, especially unholy, are now, if you ask the question it means there is only one answer:

you need to check how you play, you are most definitely doing something wrong and need to check your rotation and gameplay.

Thing is I'm in the 90th percentile on each encounter so I'm mostly 1-3rd in dps in my raid but if I was playing any other class I'd be doing 30-60k more dps. DK is currently in a shit state and if you want to do higher dps than noobs in the 50th percentile you'll need to be in the 85th percentile or higher.

[Deleted]

actually spriests got nerfed hard, (top percentile) and buffed crazily(average player, and for aoe) problem was spriest went from being below UH DK, to being 3rd for top 99 percentile because of abusing an artifact trait with a talent

but i was talking about buffs to frost, in conjunction with nerfs to other classes

like that
i was more talking about DK's being brought in line with other classes, because ones that needed buffs, got buffs, ones that needed nerfs, got nerfs (except for arms war they really need nerf)

also you can't compare a class that has 1 dps spec to one that has two, yes spriest was doing better than frost, but not UH for the top 75 percentile of players, for last week, not last 2 weeks.

as of last week / 75%, frost DK's still have frost mages, and affl locks BELOW them. so nope, not the ultimate shit situation

as of the massive buff mind sear got, it was because it was literally so bad, you would tab dot, and ignore that spell completely, it wasn't just the worst aoe in game, it was garbage. but hey remorseless winter, which was already better, still got a 50% buff.

now, since talking about the massive change in ranking for spriest from 75% to 99%, lets look at frost for the last week.

99% frost dk's are above destro and affl locks, frost mages, and ele shaman.
and the hotpatch was only a couple of days ago. meaning, doing last week, means some of that data was pre-buff for frost.

someone doesn't know the current dps situation

but while frost isn't top end, there will be people near the bottom, but with 2-5 specs worse off than frost, based off partially pre-buff data, it's CERTAINLY not the worst.
(i.e. if they buff the bottom tier, to the top, then the middle becomes the new bottom, and gogo FoTM players whining about AK/AP not being shared)

also if you are a 99 percentile frost DK, you will be in second place compared to the 75 percentile players, ofc that means you have to play better than them 261,799 dps vs a 75% asn rogue third on logs, 261k as well--

It is the ultimate shit situation. Not for Frost or Unholy each on its own. But DK's as a whole we're in a shit situation. EVERY class have a spec that is better than BOTH DK specs. Nobody plays affliction when they know it's shit and they can get much higher numbers with each one of their other specs. Thinking DK's are in an okay spot now is so naive it's crazy.

And who cares about Shadowpriest AoE? If you want AoE you bring a mage or a hunter and they'll do the job 5 times better than any other class. You bring them for their ST.

And when you're playing as 99% percentile as DK against a 99% hunter or mage, which I am in a guild like mine, it's bye bye DK.

[Halliax]

I understand what OP is saying, and it doesnt apply only to ppl on top20 guilds...My guild had to fight to finish progression on top1000 last tier(we are aiming to top500 this tier), and with the influx of new players for Legion we are now with 30 players (wich 14 are melee DPS), did 7/7hc last week, and checking the logs I can tell that I cant compete in DPS with the 2 DHs, 1 Monk WW and 2 warrior arms (got 1 rogue but he is bad), and when we are talking about DPS on priority targets (burst single target) the 2 retris also destroyed me ON DPS on those targets, we also have other 2 unholies, but these are fine as our DPS is close enough. So, as we start to raid on Mythic today, if I was the RL, I think I would bench me, as we have other 7 MDPS(Monk WW, DHs, Wars and Retris, those last on some fights only, but with the buff they are geting today..) who bring more mobility, more utility and more DPS to the table...

[Christan]

EVERY class have a spec that is better than BOTH DK specs

how about locks, having all 3 specs below DK's for 1 week / top 75%?

granted UH not frost.

or ret, pala's have no spec above UH

priests surrender to madness was bugged with an artifact trait, that's been fixed, as of today, we won't be seeing that anymore, meaning their aoe is higher but single target will be lower than DK most likely. (maybe with mind flay buff, might even it out for the average player, the top 99 percentile will be feeling the pain though, and anyone else who talented that)

should i go on?

rets, and ALL lock specs, under UH dk, that is not "EVERY class --- BOTH --- dk specs, that you said.

someone does not know the current dps situation, thinks only DK's are suffering.

[Life-Binder]

EVERY class have a spec that is better than BOTH DK specs

Ret, locks ? .. not sure about Shadow


UH is pretty good in raids, idk why ppl are slamming it so hard

then only issue I see is that Frost is still a bit behind UH and that Frost is worse mechanically for raiding than UH (but may be better in 5-mans)

[farza]

Ret, locks ?

Lol palas - top target heals and in top3 tanks (war => bear => pala >>> DH>>> monk>>> BDK) and ret gonna get buffed tomorrow. We will be the weakest melee spec in ST fight (except surv, lol).
Yep, only locks are lower than us. But locks will be buffed tomorrow. All specs.

[Christan]

Lol palas - top target heals and in top3 tanks (war => bear => pala >>> DH>>> monk>>> BDK)
Yep, only locks are lower than us. But locks will be buffed tomorrow. All specs.

said before i prefer a well played blood than almost every other tank, and with prot war nerfed hard with promises of future nerfs coming to IP from blizz, making blood look better and better, well played blood compared to brm is a huge margin, sure guardians are meat shields of dps roar.

but i'd def consider blood > DH as far as ME healing them goes. sure DH push out more dps, but tank dps getting nerfed as a whole anyway, which will hurt brm even moreso than now.

but yeah locks, all specs, and ret, lower on top 75% / last week. (with half the last 7 days, being pre-frost-buff, but talking about UH here)

mind, i'm not disagreeing that frost isn't being pissed on, BUT i did say before there has to be a bottom, if they buffed all lock specs, uh and frost to the top, ele rets spriest etc would all be at the bottom, there IS a bottom.

but top 75% shows UH 238k dps vs 264k for DH, which was nerfed recently,
arms at 253k
meaning, 15k dps difference, less than 10% difference.

the sky is not falling
less than a 10% difference between the non-nerfed arms war melee gods, and UH dps.

is there really an issue?