Why would you bring a DK besides grip?

[Skullbound]

how about locks, having all 3 specs below DK's for 1 week / top 75%?

granted UH not frost.

or ret, pala's have no spec above UH

priests surrender to madness was bugged with an artifact trait, that's been fixed, as of today, we won't be seeing that anymore, meaning their aoe is higher but single target will be lower than DK most likely. (maybe with mind flay buff, might even it out for the average player, the top 99 percentile will be feeling the pain though, and anyone else who talented that)

should i go on?

rets, and ALL lock specs, under UH dk, that is not "EVERY class --- BOTH --- dk specs, that you said.

someone does not know the current dps situation, thinks only DK's are suffering.

This dude is so clueless. Mind doing some research before opening your mouth? First of all, you're claiming UH is good on Il'gynoth? You mean the fight where Bloods are so important and heart dmg isn't?(Sarcasm) What kind of argument is that? And secondly, the Frost DK buffs are there to bring us "Up to par" with other classes, which in no way is the case. There are no fights where you want a DK for constant AoE when others can do it better. Let's take a look at mythic raiding, since I have done testing on all bosses (except the ones not released) during beta. Neth basically pure ST with random MCs going on. Ursoc 2 target cleave. Dragons, potential cleave but in no means would you go AoE talents for this. Elerethe wings take care of spiderlings. Cenarius two target cleave with them being out of range of the boss, on top of that, you don't even want to fully cleave otherwise you'll generally push the dragon so it begins it's constant AoE pulse. Mythic Xavius wasn't available for testing obviously. So the claim was we do well on AoE fights. I didn't think Night Hold was already out.

[farza]

said before i prefer a well played blood than almost every other tank, and with prot war nerfed hard with promises of future nerfs coming to IP from blizz, making blood look better and better, well played blood compared to brm is a huge margin, sure guardians are meat shields of dps roar.

but i'd def consider blood > DH as far as ME healing them goes. sure DH push out more dps, but tank dps getting nerfed as a whole anyway, which will hurt brm even moreso than now.

but yeah locks, all specs, and ret, lower on top 75% / last week. (with half the last 7 days, being pre-frost-buff, but talking about UH here)

mind, i'm not disagreeing that frost isn't being pissed on, BUT i did say before there has to be a bottom, if they buffed all lock specs, uh and frost to the top, ele rets spriest etc would all be at the bottom, there IS a bottom.

but top 75% shows UH 238k dps vs 264k for DH, which was nerfed recently,
arms at 253k
meaning, 15k dps difference, less than 10% difference.

the sky is not falling
less than a 10% difference between the non-nerfed arms war melee gods, and UH dps.

is there really an issue?

Lol. Have u healed ursoc or cenarius?
We got 850 BDK in haste/crit gear and prot warr 843+VDH 850 in mastery gear. Guess who was oneshotted almost every fight?
Tank DPS are almost equal in st fight.
We are the slowest melee. We don't have any utilities. But the others melee are more mobile and stronger than us. We are not okay.

[Jyggalag]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#dataset=100

The same reason you'd bring a ret paladin, an elemental shaman, or a balance druid, or any of the other 11 specs that are below a DK on this chart

[Christan]

since this is mainly about frost, and frost being the sub-optimal raiding spec, should we compare it to the other sub-optimal melee specs?
75% / last week
frost: 207.8k dps
fury: 216.5k dps
subl: 220k dps
we see there, less than a 10% difference between sub optimal raiding specs for melee only.



99% / last week
subl: 261.9k dps
frost: 263.7k dps
fury: 274.1k dps
and we see here, less than a 10% difference, AND frost beating subl


if we are talking about frost, and same person mentions lol affl lock who plays that raiding blah blah...then they have to consider that frost, is as lol worthy as affl locks.
but even comparing just the sub-optimal melee specs, there is a less than 10% difference, for choosing one sub class vs others.


now if you want to add UH in, then you beat out rets ALL lock specs, 2 mage specs, 2 hunter specs.


i can go on and on, but you get the gist, when talking about sub-optimal specs, because there will ALWAYS be a bottom, even if frost gets buffed to the top, that means another class is getting benched in that 'top' guild.

but sub-optimal, sure, there will always be suboptimal specs though, frost could definitely use some escape mechanics or w/e but ppl seem more focused on dps here.



edit

Lol. Have u healed ursoc or cenarius?
We got 850 BDK in haste/crit gear and prot warr 843+VDH 850 in mastery gear. Guess who was oneshotted almost every fight?
Tank DPS are almost equal in st fight.
We are the slowest melee. We don't have any utilities. But the others melee are more mobile and stronger than us. We are not okay.

sadly i started the expansion to late and my ilvl wasn't up to par, will be raiding this week though. i DO still need to work on it but i have a can of IDGAF, because i play with other semi-casuals, meaning we aren't the top 99%, above top50% playerbase sure, top 20 on server sure,
if it becomes an issue i can buy a dal ring replace my 820, a piece or 2 off AH to replace an 825 cape etc.

and mind, i've only healed mythic, not even mythic+ yet, i've been lazy, but my artifact fishing pole has 1 trait to second gold star, and 3/4th the way there!!!(yes more excited about fishing than raiding...oddly...i miss mop tanking on brm) playing an rshama now because i was like...need something new hpriest was okay, but if i can't tank because guild doesn't need tanks(i'd quit raiding a bit before SoO, came back for one tier as a healer, i love healing 5mans, raid healing can get aggrevating in an 'average' guild XD---i'm average as well--)

but none of that means i can't comprehend data that's put in front of me. WoL is a nice resource.

[Deleted]

how about locks, having all 3 specs below DK's for 1 week / top 75%?

granted UH not frost.

or ret, pala's have no spec above UH

priests surrender to madness was bugged with an artifact trait, that's been fixed, as of today, we won't be seeing that anymore, meaning their aoe is higher but single target will be lower than DK most likely. (maybe with mind flay buff, might even it out for the average player, the top 99 percentile will be feeling the pain though, and anyone else who talented that)

should i go on?

rets, and ALL lock specs, under UH dk, that is not "EVERY class --- BOTH --- dk specs, that you said.

someone does not know the current dps situation, thinks only DK's are suffering.

What are you talking about? Yeah. Currently. On live. Pre-tomorrow-patch. Classes are below us. But when the patch goes live tomorrow we'll be so far down it's insane. Rets will be really high, warlocks will beat us.



Just look at that shit. I know it's ST, but DK's aren't exactly the best at target switching either, we have much more ramp up that a lot of other classes. We have to apply wounds before we can do any real dmg to new targets.

[murbaez]

You know, i see alot of people complain about DK mobility, i don't feel it as much though since i rolled Worgen. Sure it's not that big a difference but it does make a diff. along with the WW talent that reduces CD to 30sec and increase speed. Sure it's still not as mobile some other classes, but there are at least some work arounds. But Mythic raids are coming out, so these next 3 weeks i think will be what determines how well our class really is performing. I've been performing near the top in my raids, i hope the top class DKs end up slightly better than middle of the pack.

Also, in 5 man setting, having a Brz is pretty great especially coupled with our decent damage output. And we dont have to sacrifice too much in our talents to be fair in both aoe and ST. I also feel that some people don't give DG enough credit, it's amazingly useful in many situations. And we do have a stun too so we have some form of CC though it's not long term.

[Christan]

This dude is so clueless. Mind doing some research before opening your mouth? First of all, you're claiming UH is good on Il'gynoth?

you're the one putting words in peoples mouth, and as soon as you have to attack a person, instead of the persons argument, you've already lost said argument.
i'm done trying to help someone who is pointedly clueless. to the point of it not being on purpose is not possible.

- - - Updated - - -

What are you talking about? Yeah. Currently. On live. Pre-tomorrow-patch. Classes are below us. But when the patch goes live tomorrow we'll be so far down it's insane. Rets will be really high, warlocks will beat us.

https://i.gyazo.com/26be0436f1015db1...598a27dde2.png

not sure about that, this is what i was going off of

based off of https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...gregate=amount

just saying there is less than a 10% difference between frost and the other sub-par dps melee specs sub/fury and even ret is below the better of the two DK specs, UH

[Deleted]

you're the one putting words in peoples mouth, and as soon as you have to attack a person, instead of the persons argument, you've already lost said argument.
i'm done trying to help someone who is pointedly clueless. to the point of it not being on purpose is not possible.

- - - Updated - - -


not sure about that, this is what i was going off of

based off of https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...gregate=amount

You clearly ignored my point or didn't get it. The 75th percentile thing you just linked, 75th percentile btw is useless. 95th is what matter. But that shows how it is on LIVE. I stated that on Live we're above others. The buffs and nerfs to classes aren't live. The thing I showed you, is how the classes have simmed AFTER the new buffs and nerfs arrive.

[Christan]

You clearly ignored my point or didn't get it. The 75th percentile thing you just linked, 75th percentile btw is useless. 95th is what matter. But that shows how it is on LIVE. I stated that on Live we're above others. The buffs and nerfs to classes aren't live. The thing I showed you, is how the classes have simmed AFTER the new buffs and nerfs arrive.

scroll up to a previous post of mine, even the top 99%, has frost dk's less than 10% within range of the other sub-optimal melee specs.
yes, just like other melee's one of your specs will suck.
and i see frost even beating sub ele and frost mage.

after frostt buffs tomorrow, you will be beating more than 3 classes for top 99%

just saying, i quoted someone saying frost is at the bottom, no they aren't, they are close to it, but nope.
whereas i get words put into my mouth, as having said things i haven't actually said.

i'm done here, can't help some people, if you want to rise to the occasion then fight for it, write that letter up, etc.
frost COULD use some help, but hyperbole is not the way to get blizzards attention,

push comes to shove, blizz will follow the numbers, if people STOP playing frost, blizz will have to buff it a bit more.

play something else if it bothers you that much, then blizz will see them that spec hemorrhaging players and do something to fix it (i said the same thing multiple times, in a previous DK thread, and on Spriest thread, maybe a lock thread i don't remember, just dont play it)

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...er/11176490/8/

that's you right kanj? Median Perf. Avg:77 (click to UH spec, 78% based off blood)
why are you bothered by the top 95%?

2% ahead of the 75% i've been linking based off all of HFC / your historical data

135k dps average off top 95% frost DK in HFC
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...unt&dataset=95


123.3k for top 95% UH dk dps. for archimonde (this is an average)
and you
115k dps (this is your best, not an average)


in fact, looking specifically at archimonde for your char, you are in the top 48 percentile. (for your entire average)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...0/8/#boss=1799


come on, you are being dense and acting like some god player, when you are as average as half the playerbase.

i've already said i'm a casual, and i'm average, at least i don't pretend.

[Deleted]

The main reason why DKs are so bad is that there are so many idiots like christian who defends the sorry state of our class. we bring SHIT TIER mobility, NO utility, SUBPAR DPS and have not one single spec that is performing above average right now.

Come on people, wake up. I really wish I could post on the US forums. We need to do something as community, else nothing change. If this

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T19P.html

doesnt fucking convince you after Blizzard told us we will be high dps when were at target, then I dont know what to say.

[Deleted]

The main reason why DKs are so bad is that there are so many idiots like christian who defends the sorry state of our class. we bring SHIT TIER mobility, NO utility, SUBPAR DPS and have not one single spec that is performing above average right now.

Come on people, wake up. I really wish I could post on the US forums. We need to do something as community, else nothing change. If this

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T19P.html

doesnt fucking convince you after Blizzard told us we will be high dps when were at target, then I dont know what to say.

This. We'll overall be in a shit state tomorrow. Doesn't understand the struggle when you have to fight for your raid spot.

[Life-Binder]

a battle res is an utility last I checked over another DPS which dont have a Bres

[Deleted]

a battle res is an utility last I checked over another DPS which dont have a Bres

Yeah but why pick a DK when you can have a boomkin or resto druid(These you'll definantly have) or Warlock, which all will do more dmg than a DK, AND BE RANGE.

[Life-Binder]

Yeah but why pick a DK when you can have a boomkin or resto druid(These you'll definantly have) or Warlock, which all will do more dmg than a DK, AND BE RANGE.

we'll see about Boomkin and lock dmg after post-buff logs come out

[Deleted]

The Sims make me really sad... I will wait the upcoming week how the state really is, but we have no choice. We have to take what blizz is buffing or nerfing our class. The Problem is i love the playstyle of the class, but i want to be competitive and if they dont do something and do some balancing, real balancing for all classes i am pissed, because i wastet 4 weeks.I dont know which class I should reroll because it has to fit the raid....

[Deleted]

we'll see about Boomkin and lock dmg after post-buff logs come out

Thing is. For a player who's participating in the race to world first. That'll be far too late.

[Deleted]

I know one class has to be bottom, but why is the balancing of dks so bad?

[Jyggalag]

You clearly ignored my point or didn't get it. The 75th percentile thing you just linked, 75th percentile btw is useless. 95th is what matter. But that shows how it is on LIVE. I stated that on Live we're above others. The buffs and nerfs to classes aren't live. The thing I showed you, is how the classes have simmed AFTER the new buffs and nerfs arrive.

If 95 percentile is all that matters, then shouldn't the thread title be "Why would you bring anything besides a Demon Hunter, Arms Warrior, MM Hunter or Shadow Priest?" Blizzard doesn't balance classes around the world first race so 75 percentile is exactly what matters.

Thing is. For a player who's participating in the race to world first. That'll be far too late.

I don't see Infeh complaining. He's brought his DK to actual world firsts for quite a few tiers now when DK wasn't top dog. Grip will always be useful. I'll agree that they might need a slight buff, especially considering the buffs to other specs with similar output on live ATM but if they were top 5 dps on most encounters they'd be mandatory because of grip.
And no harm mate but you'll not get world first anyway. If you were actually serious about it you'd have re-rolled or at least had a few options like he has with his DH or WW.

[Skullbound]

The other thing people don't realize is that when you look at "ALL BOSSES" it applies Il'gynoth, which is practically a pad fight. Yes bloods have to die, but if other classes can handle it better why not let them? In which case you just prioritize heart dmg. Look at boss by boss fights please.

[Deleted]

If 95 percentile is all that matters, then shouldn't the thread title be "Why would you bring anything besides a Demon Hunter, Arms Warrior, MM Hunter or Shadow Priest?" Blizzard doesn't balance classes around the world first race so 75 percentile is exactly what matters.



I don't see Infeh complaining. He's brought his DK to actual world firsts for quite a few tiers now when DK wasn't top dog. Grip will always be useful. I'll agree that they might need a slight buff, especially considering the buffs to other specs with similar output on live ATM but if they were top 5 dps on most encounters they'd be mandatory because of grip.
And no harm mate but you'll not get world first anyway. If you were actually serious about it you'd have re-rolled or at least had a few options like he has with his DH or WW.

Mass grip was worth a lot. Grip is only worth something when people mess up on tacts in this tier. Il'gynoth is the only fight where grip helps and that's only when people mess up.