Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[osa]

What are you guys seeing for uptime on Bloodthirsty Instinct? On EN bosses mine seems to always be in the 30-40% range, but in simulation craft it shows 62% uptime. I'm wondering if this one got nerfed whenever Twisting Winds did.

Same here. Had 860 ilvl trinket on my monk and noticed it's uptime 30-33% while sims show twice as big, around 60%. Could be the reason why it sims so high.

[eathdemon]

Any more conclusive word on whether Barrage or Crows will be the single target choice after the patch?

I am getting the sense crows will be better in theory. the issue is alot of people, including me use Barrage while we are re positioning. the real question is does crows do enough damage over Barrage to justify the mobility lose?

[Deleted]

I am getting the sense crows will be better in theory. the issue is alot of people, including me use Barrage while we are re positioning. the real question is does crows do enough damage over Barrage to justify the mobility lose?

Yeah I'm wondering the same but the answer to the former question (straight DPS) is important because unless the difference in damage is significant then I'll stick with Barrage and have the mobility + flexibility to handle AoE packs. But if Crows is coming out as significantly better single target then it's a hard choice.

[Effinhunter]

I'll be sure to try to rerun sims again. If barrage was accidentally buffed in Simcraft instead of nerfed that would definitely explain the odd bump we're seeing here.

[satimy]

Did they revert the barrage nerf ?

[Youn]

If Barrage is 20% of your damage and you take a 20% nerf on it that would be a 4% reduction in dps. If windburst was previously 6% of your damage and suddenly mastery starts actually working for it. And your gear looks similar to mine then you would get a 6% boost from windburst to your dps. This is a net 2% boost on single target. So, they are assuming you're hitting windburst on CD and that we are stacking mastery.

[ohshift]

Did they revert the barrage nerf ?

lol no

each shot is now critting for what i was hitting without crits yesterday

[Effinhunter]

There is a problem in Simcraft. Someone did indeed buff Barrage by 20%. You can see the change here:
https://github.com/simulationcraft/s...nter.txt#L2460

It was Base Value 100 and Scaled of 1.0. Now, it's 120 and 1.2, respectively. Collision is updating the hunter.txt file. Hopefully, we'll have corrected version in an hour or two.

[Swol]

To be fair I have issues with both apls, like non-Vuln Marked Shots, but one thing I noticed quickly was amr refreshing Hunter's Mark without casting Marked Shot sometimes, which I don't see in simc. That said, my own APL is at like 5k over even default simc, so all apls could use work, but I'm trying to finish that.

Using my MM APL and sidewinders, hunter's mark is never refreshed. If you aren't using Sidewinders, it is possible for it to get refreshed a couple of times. I tried just waiting for focus instead of casting Arcane Shot, but you really end up doing the same amount of damage because it is such a rare occurrence. I can leave the logic in to never refresh hunter's mark - I just personally never like to sit around waiting.

Regarding Marked Shots that don't benefit from Vulnerable: There are situations where that can happen, depending on your level of haste (although they are very rare, maybe 2 Marked Shots in a whole 450sec sim). For example, I tested on a character with about 14% Haste and saw this sequence occur: Sidewinders, LaL Aimed Shot, Barrage, LaL Aimed Shot, Marked Shot. Vulnerable falls off just before the Marked Shot could be cast. But, your only choice in that situation is to refresh Hunter's Mark by casting Sidewinders again, or, delay the Aimed Shot for two GCDs. Neither of those choices is going to be a DPS gain over just using the Marked Shot.

If you have an APL that is already doing more damage than the defaults, share it with us and we'll make improvements. I am constantly improving APLs on a daily basis.

- - - Updated - - -

And to people wondering, I'm seeing A Murder of Crows as significantly stronger on a single target than Barrage, which is as it should be, really. Actually Volley does more damage single target than Barrage now. If you take Volley, leaving it on all the time is a DPS gain single-target. Here are some simulations in 840 gear that show the three talents:
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...968a2149ab5203 (271k murder)
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...7d2bd567123ff7 (255.5k barrage)
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...e485d102a97d7e (258.5k volley)

Barrage of course has the nice benefit of letting you move around a bit more, but, it is interesting to see theoretically possible numbers if you can handle standing still more often to cast aimed shots.

[Effinhunter]

I don't doubt that at all. That's what I was expecting from simcraft results (crows > barrage on ST), and I was surprised to see the buff in the resulting Simcraft barrage single target sims. I'm working with Collision to get the correct hotfix data in. We should have an updated simcraft uploaded very soon.

[Azortharion]

It is already updated, has been for 45 mins.

[Effinhunter]

I'm talking to Collision right now. They were initially updated with .96 instead of .80. However, we have the actual values from game in the nightly build right now. So, I'm rerunning all talent sims for MM again.

Essentially, we had to revert the manual fix because it was causing the 20% nerf to be applied to the 1.2 scale value instead of the 1.0 that it should have been. The very latest nightly should be correct.

- - - Updated - - -

Updated single target talent sims for MM. 450s +/- 20%, 10k iterations. All talent combinations (top 29 shown). This version of Simcraft has the latest spelldata dump from in game.



Simcraft source is same as first post. I am running the 3 and 6 target sims now and will be rerunning some of the comparisons next.

[Chickensoup23]

So TLDR -- everything stays the same as before the nerf, but we use amoc on Ursoc. Correct?

[Azortharion]

Ursoc Mythic is a multitarget fight.

[Jayeazy]

Using my MM APL and sidewinders, hunter's mark is never refreshed.

I capped and posted this image a few pages back

But, your only choice in that situation is to refresh Hunter's Mark by casting Sidewinders again, or, delay the Aimed Shot for two GCDs.

Maybe I need to sim it to be sure but I can't see delaying the Barrage for a gcd and getting a 150% MS being worse than an unbuffed MS.

[Chickensoup23]

Ursoc Mythic is a multitarget fight.

Welp, nothing to see this hotfix patch then. Move along, everyone!


EDIT: Wow, tried it on live and Barrage damage is pitiful. Hits for ~34k, used to be around 66-70k pre-nerf. Are you sure its only 20%? Feels a lot more than that.

[Keoke]

Soooooo for simplicity sake because I am not in a high raiding guild, overall is Crows, or volley going to be better than barrage? the sims i see on this page up above show volley coming out ahead of barrage.

[Ashcatchum]

Soooooo for simplicity sake because I am not in a high raiding guild, overall is Crows, or volley going to be better than barrage? the sims i see on this page up above show volley coming out ahead of barrage.

There is this guide on this website called icy-veins . com that answer your question, but for the simple answer barrage multi target and crows single. Just go with barrage man its going to be ok :P.

[Effinhunter]

3 Target and 6 Target sims for MM, post hotfixes. 180s, fixed. 10k iterations. Same simcraft source in first post.

MM 3 Target Talents


MM 6 Target Talents

[Typhod]

Any simulations on how the Flanking Strike buff will affect the numbers and priority for SV hunters?