What's Frost feel like now?

[RuneDK]

^ pretty much what he said.

Off-topic good to see you posting again @Schizoide.

[Schizoide]

I quit for a very long time over no flying, then when they promised it would come back before (and not at) the last patch of the expansion, I came back. Crossing my fingers they didn't lie again 'cause fool me twice, etc.

Due to 100% runspeed and that awful sprint on DKs, I can't stand playing it and am floating around mains. Will probably end up with an enhance shaman or fury warrior.

[Hctaz]

I quit for a very long time over no flying, then when they promised it would come back before (and not at) the last patch of the expansion, I came back. Crossing my fingers they didn't lie again 'cause fool me twice, etc.

Due to 100% runspeed and that awful sprint on DKs, I can't stand playing it and am floating around mains. Will probably end up with an enhance shaman or fury warrior.

Did you figure out if the sim was having issues or nah? xD I'm curious.

[Schizoide]

It's not clear why the sim undervalues frostscythe. It properly deals frost damage and crits at 5x in the sim, and the spelldata looks correct.

[Grimdeeds]

^ pretty much what he said.

Off-topic good to see you posting again @Schizoide.

really good to see Schizoide back. A guy that reliably tries to back up what he says with evidence. Hope to see more from him!

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Lots of DPS specs lack utility, but that DK sprint truly is terrible. I grit my teeth every time I use that piece of crap.

It's particularly bad now that there are no runspeed enchants left in the game for 110s; I haven't walked around at 100% speed since... well, ever. Excruciating.

None of the above has anything directly to do with frost's competitive DPS, though. Since it was at the bottom of actual raid meters, generated from thousands of actual raid parses, saying that "frost was fine" is demonstrably and deterministically untrue.

at the risk of further off topicking us, the wraith walk thing is extruciating, and almost a trap in some cases. 1. The levitate aspect means you can't jump...how many of you out there have got caught on the lip of a ground object (think the tunnel with the corrupted vines on the ground in darkheart thicket) and instead of speed boosting you actually lose time. 2. the inability to attack during means you can't use it to keep up with tank kiting boss out of stuff (think ursoc). 3. graphic-wise, a big middle finger to blizz for specifically telling us that it was strictly a placeholder model early in alpha.

[Schizoide]

The wraith walk glyph is mandatory. Without it, you get caught on every tiny rock on the ground and as you noted cannot jump. Whatever it costs, 20k gold, whatever it is, get it. Still not fun to use even glyphed due to its very short duration and channel, but at least this renders it usable.

Thinking back, I literally have never walked at 100% speed in all of WoW. Even back in vanilla I got the minor speed enchant for 8%. This is truly a first.

[Tyrean]

I dunno, I think something is just wrong in SimC. I just loaded up my character and did not change anything and ran an Unholy sim, put me at 233k. Then I ran a frost sim, did not change any of the defaults and it put me at 133k. It had my frost sim as waiting 97 seconds. It says it has only 52% uptime on 3 stack icy talons, but I just don't wait that long in game. It actually flows pretty nicely for me and I have at most a second or two of downtime here or there depending on procs. It looks like in the sim that runic gains are just not right at all because it simmed as gaining 17.48 runes and spending 1893 RP. (which is 25% proc rate essentially). Now it only did 70 frost strikes, but should have been able to do 75 based on that RP number. I also don't think the default empower rune weapon usage is right, it just say to blow it if you are <=70 RP. It should be more concerned with your open runes, not your RP number. It just seems not right.

I want to test when I get home tonight and compare in game but I know from experience that this is just waay waaay off. It is something that I don't understand in the priority list. I think it is just setup wrong. I also can't understand how in the world anything compares to icecap when you are at around 30% crit. I just think something is wrong with SimC and I just can't believe those numbers. I will know more tonight.

[Brunevde]

Frozen pulse still says "no filled runes" bah

[Tyrean]

Frozen pulse still says "no filled runes" bah

That is a 7.1 fix afaik

[Schizoide]

I don't see why breaking RE would devalue Frostscythe in particular, but lets investigate.

Frost T19P sims at 259k and Unholy T17P at 271k, both seem ballpark correct. Frost would be much lower if RE was not functioning at all. In a 300s sim it Frost Striked 92.7 times, consuming 2317.5 runic power and thus should have generated 23.175 runes through RE. Going down to Resource Gains, Runic Empowerment indeed generated 23.22 runes. RE appears to be correctly modeled.

Wait time on the Frost T19P profile is 7.48% which again seems about right-- Frost isn't plagued with tons of free GCDs like the bad old days of 6.0. Your specific results depend on your talent choices, etc. If you can track excessive wait time to a specific talent that would help.

The T19P profile again has 92.56% uptime on Icy Talons which seems about right too.

The Empower Rune Weapon entry for >70 runic power is a special case for the Breath of Sindragosa talent. If you don't take BoS, it will use ERW (or hungering rune weapon) at the bottom of the generic action list with no meaningful conditionals. Since it's at the bottom of the action list, that means all the stuff above it cannot be executed-- FF is already up, you don't have the RP to frost strike, already glacial advanced, frostscythed (on KM or AE), and obliterated, and if you took Frozen Pulse, are at 0 runes. So the only way ERW would be wasted even in part is if you met the following three conditions:

a) had 1 single rune available
b) had less than 25 runic power
c) didn't take frozen pulse

In that case I guess you should probably Frostscythe to burn that last rune. But since everybody should take Frozen Pulse, not sure that's worth further optimization right now.

Edit: Yes, for some reason they are delaying the Frozen Pulse fix to 7.1. Never clear why they hotfix some things and patch others, particularly now that they can hotfix tooltips too.

[Andriokz]

Lots of DPS specs lack utility, but that DK sprint truly is terrible. I grit my teeth every time I use that piece of crap.

It's particularly bad now that there are no runspeed enchants left in the game for 110s; I haven't walked around at 100% speed since... well, ever. Excruciating.

None of the above has anything directly to do with frost's competitive DPS, though. Since it was at the bottom of actual raid meters, generated from thousands of actual raid parses, saying that "frost was fine" is demonstrably and deterministically untrue.

I would agree. My monk just seems so much better than both sadly. Wraith Walk is truly one of the worse things I have ever seen. Some classes seem to have so much more utility alongside comparable numbers to Unholy. Our utility is what, DGx2 if we go the better spec?

At least we got the title "Deathlord," just wish I could put xxmlg before it then replace the o with a 0 with it. Maybe there will be comparable numbers this week in Unh vs Frost... maybe :^)

[giniyo]

since i made my monk my main char returning to this expansion, i should probably really let go of my dk for now and twink a caster if anything, windwalker just feels so high quality and well polished in many ways >_<

[Andriokz]

since i made my monk my main char returning to this expansion, i should probably really let go of my dk for now and twink a caster if anything, windwalker just feels so high quality and well polished in many ways >_<

It flows more naturally.. like... like the wind. Yeah, I did that.

DK just feels weird as Unh right now. I do a 1.5 min then 3 min CD. Balls and poppin' zits in between. Personal taste though, luckily most DKs seem to enjoy Unh.

[Sinzaram]

Edit: Yes, for some reason they are delaying the Frozen Pulse fix to 7.1. Never clear why they hotfix some things and patch others, particularly now that they can hotfix tooltips too.

Its very clear why. Theres big changes and small changes. Design changes and numbers changes.

Back in the pre cata days, they would do changes whenever. Big changes small changes whatever they could fit into any patch any time.

Deathknights and hunters particularly suffered from this in Wrath. Each patch remade specs.
3.0 BM hunters are the best, 3.0.8 BM got changed so what made them best wasn't anymore. 3.1 Ulduar and Survival Hunters are a completely new spec with black arrow and locknload and explosive shot, all new abilities. 3.4 Icecrown and Survival is brought back to earth and MM is suddenly the best because of the whole rollercoaster over the expansion.
Think of how many people played at the start of wrath to come back to find that their spec plays completely different in a month, and then completely different a month from that.

This lead to them changing their philosophy on when to make changes and there was a giant blog on the subject at the time.
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...rate-of-change

So now they hold back the big design(how a class plays) changes until expansions or big patches.
Balance hotfixes like we have today just after expansion launch and just before the Mythic (or Heroic in olden times) race aren't anything new either.
Some specs don't do enough damage to other specs its very easy to increase the numbers of everything as they are doing without changing the gameplay.

The Frozen Pulse 7.1 change might big a tiny change to us. But it comes with a much larger sweep of design changes for everyone.
Think Warlocks and Ret have the biggest design changes, With Blade of Wrath becoming a proc and Unstable Affliction overlapping instead of igniting and much more.
Imagine these changes happening the night before the most important raids of the expansion for you? No time to play with them on live before hand, just overnight abilities changed. Have the same situation that happened in Wrath of giant sweeping changes patch to patch rollercoaster with no warning.

Its much easier to separate the buff/nerf balance number changes and hold back the design changes for patches.
Its nothing new and its what has been the case since the philosophy change back in Cata.

The only thing different is they might have the tech to do more in depth hotfixes like Cavalier for Paladins. But the should they do the change is always the question on their minds and one they've decided on. Too much change too much too often is bad and makes people quit.

[Schizoide]

I raided on a DK in wrath, I'm well aware of the roller-coaster. The Frozen Pulse buff would not change gameplay, so all that stuff doesn't apply. There's no reason why they couldn't delay only gameplay changes for patches.

Additionally, quite a few changes that do impact gameplay, gear choices, and talent choices were hotfixed in today. Off the top of my head, shadow surrender to madness sustain changed, destro rain of fire is now instant-cast, vengeance mastery was nerfed by a whopping 50%, and enhance doom winds was changed to not proc guaranteed offhand windfury. I'm sure I missed a couple. There were also a metric ton of PvP changes with gameplay impact.

Basically, while they did indeed say they're trying to slow change velocity a couple years ago, much like releasing faster expansions, they never actually did that.

[0verdose]

Lots of DPS specs lack utility, but that DK sprint truly is terrible. I grit my teeth every time I use that piece of crap.

It's particularly bad now that there are no runspeed enchants left in the game for 110s; I haven't walked around at 100% speed since... well, ever. Excruciating.

None of the above has anything directly to do with frost's competitive DPS, though. Since it was at the bottom of actual raid meters, generated from thousands of actual raid parses, saying that "frost was fine" is demonstrably and deterministically untrue.

Tell me about it... I miss that 10% ms so badly...

[pixelated senpai]

Tried it in raid and go destroyed by other classes so bad that i had to go back to unholy. Nice burst aoe/cleave for the mythic+ though, will try frost out on heroic cenarius tomorrow since theres a bit more constant cleave :/

[karasique]

Tried it in raid and go destroyed by other classes so bad that i had to go back to unholy. Nice burst aoe/cleave for the mythic+ though, will try frost out on heroic cenarius tomorrow since theres a bit more constant cleave :/

Ouch. And here I was hoping that something may have changed for ST.

[0verdose]

Ouch. And here I was hoping that something may have changed for ST.

Nothing really changed. Frost is stronger but still a bottom feeder. More of a consolation prize than a buff reward imo. Went against equal ilvl frost dks in a raid today and still destroyed them ST, their cleave is pretty good, but that's about it, it's stil not as good as unholys either though.

[Piz813]

Tried it in raid and go destroyed by other classes so bad that i had to go back to unholy. Nice burst aoe/cleave for the mythic+ though, will try frost out on heroic cenarius tomorrow since theres a bit more constant cleave :/

Same. Still depressed this morning after being so excited to raid as frost. Granted H Nyth I knew I wouldn't do so good but on H Nightmare Dragons I was on the non-cleave side of things.... did 240k in the end...

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