[Arcane] Hotfix bugged - Or misunderstanding?

[yarafx1]

So with the changes


Mage

Arcane
Mastery effects increased by 20%.
Arcane Missiles damage increased by 9%.
Arcane Blast damage increased by 10%.


Outside of

Arcane
Quickening (Talent)’s maximum stacks are now 50, and it will not refresh its duration once at 50 stacks.- Outside of this dropping off which is awful.

As of last night my stat for Mastery was
29.53% (8% + 21.35%)
7473[+21.35%]

Today
35.22% (9.60%+25.62)
Mastery: 7473[25.62]

I was really expecting to see the base line + to have a actual 20% addition to it so you wouldn't be expected to have to be stacking infinite amounts of haste the fact that one arcane blast at 4 charges uses close 165k mana is insane.

At 1520000 if you go OOM it takes 60 seconds to regenerate all of your mana. (This was timed with 38% mana more so then above numbers I listed 8355) This still feels wrong this makes it hard to run to dungeons, having to sit and eat after every encounter or trash mobs is not fun. And the solution to this is just drop stacks every time you get to 4 and cast a spell. Doing this means you're not doing effecent damage in many Mythic / Mythic + dungeons. These are just my thoughts and its feels wrong. Given if I would be lucky enough to get the kilt or the mana regen under 40% legend I probably wouldn't need to fuss. But hey RNG controlling the fun aspect of a class is cool to. /shrugs

[Nefarious Tea]

It's mastery % multiplied by 1.2, not Mastery % +20%. That would be an insane buff - more than 20% extra damage to a spec? It would be HFC Arcane on fights shorter than 3 minutes again.

[Komman]

This is working as intended. The buff increases the effect of Mastery by 20%, instead of giving you 20% free Mastery.

On a related note, it doesn't matter what your mana level is, it should always take exactly 66.67 seconds to regenerate your mana from 0, or 73.33 seconds if you're using Arcane Familiar. Mana regen is 1.5% of your max mana per second (before Arcane Familiar or special item effects), so this number is fixed.

Dungeons as Arcane is indeed challenging, because it requires grasping at every second out of combat to eat/drink. This creates problems in higher number mythic+ dungeons that require moving forward a lot,

[Shiny212]

This is working as intended. The buff increases the effect of Mastery by 20%, instead of giving you 20% free Mastery.

On a related note, it doesn't matter what your mana level is, it should always take exactly 66.67 seconds to regenerate your mana from 0, or 73.33 seconds if you're using Arcane Familiar. Mana regen is 1.5% of your max mana per second (before Arcane Familiar or special item effects), so this number is fixed.

Dungeons as Arcane is indeed challenging, because it requires grasping at every second out of combat to eat/drink. This creates problems in higher number mythic+ dungeons that require moving forward a lot,

Don't see the issue there tbh. Evocation has a low cooldown, and can even be used while moving. I dunno if this will make arcane competitive still though. It needs big single target buffs.

[Obelisk Kai]

Dungeons as Arcane is indeed challenging, because it requires grasping at every second out of combat to eat/drink. This creates problems in higher number mythic+ dungeons that require moving forward a lot,

Komman the more I see you and others talk about Arcane the more I am forced to come to the conclusion that Northem was right all those months ago when he was complaining and that this spec IS just hideously flawed. Is there any hope for it?

[yarafx1]

Don't see the issue there tbh. Evocation has a low cooldown, and can even be used while moving. I dunno if this will make arcane competitive still though. It needs big single target buffs.

It doesn't have a low CD until tier sets come out not to mention its very hard if you're going for the quickening build to have it finish and then cast a spell.

On another note Channeling Arcane Missiles only procs/continues the quickening on cast and not once it finishes which also feels wrong.

[Shangalar]

Depends on how you view "hideously flawed". I feel like from a developmental point of view they were considering either "big mana regen, less damage" vs "low mana regen, high damage" and we got something along the lines of the second choice. It's definitely not perfect, but it's perfectly functional in solo play and dungeons up to low Mythic+, as well as in raids now that the damage was increased in the hotfix. Looking back to WoD and MoP, Arcane wasn't the go-to spec for Challenge Mode dungeons either because of the spec limitations. I'm not necessarily against that.

I do agree that they failed in implementing their own target gameplay, but not that the spec is so deeply flawed that it's unplayable or not fun.

[Komman]

Don't see the issue there tbh. Evocation has a low cooldown, and can even be used while moving. I dunno if this will make arcane competitive still though. It needs big single target buffs.

Issue is you can't really use Evocation when a boss is coming up.

Komman the more I see you and others talk about Arcane the more I am forced to come to the conclusion that Northem was right all those months ago when he was complaining and that this spec IS just hideously flawed. Is there any hope for it?

I don't see it as hideously flawed. Some of the weaknesses are intended. Some of the others are just tuning. The dungeon context is kind of the worst case scenario - heavy movement, constantly in combat, long duration.

[Obelisk Kai]

I don't see it as hideously flawed. Some of the weaknesses are intended. Some of the others are just tuning. The dungeon context is kind of the worst case scenario - heavy movement, constantly in combat, long duration.

Not so bad, but a more pertinent question then maybe, why spec Arcane when Fire appears to be more flexible in terms of when and where you can use it? What does Arcane bring to the table that Fire does not?

Does Arcane now only exist for that small group of players that have always liked it?

[yarafx1]

Not so bad, but a more pertinent question then maybe, why spec Arcane when Fire appears to be more flexible in terms of when and where you can use it? What does Arcane bring to the table that Fire does not?

Does Arcane now only exist for that small group of players that have always liked it?

This seems to be the case, fire not having to worry about mana ever, or frost. Unless you are spamming Spell Steal.

Fire to me just isn't fun to play I don't like having to play such a proc based class, even at 54% crit I am still fishing for procs when fire blast and flame on are on cd.

This is working as intended. The buff increases the effect of Mastery by 20%, instead of giving you 20% free Mastery.

On a related note, it doesn't matter what your mana level is, it should always take exactly 66.67 seconds to regenerate your mana from 0, or 73.33 seconds if you're using Arcane Familiar. Mana regen is 1.5% of your max mana per second (before Arcane Familiar or special item effects), so this number is fixed.

Dungeons as Arcane is indeed challenging, because it requires grasping at every second out of combat to eat/drink. This creates problems in higher number mythic+ dungeons that require moving forward a lot,

This point is exactly the problem if our mana regen is boosted by our haste should we not be getting back to max mana in faster return?

At least they could boost the out of combat regeneration for us. I think that for what it is would solve allot of the fussing that my self and many others seem to have.

[Shangalar]

Not so bad, but a more pertinent question then maybe, why spec Arcane when Fire appears to be more flexible in terms of when and where you can use it? What does Arcane bring to the table that Fire does not?

Does Arcane now only exist for that small group of players that have always liked it?

Arcane has always existed for a tiny base of players who really want to play it. Not sure if any other class has this disparity or bias towards a single spec. Fire is something mages want to play and there are always massive complaints when Arcane outperforms Fire in such a way that raiders are forced to swap to Arcane for progress or optimal performance. Arcane had a three expansion advantage over Frost, yet when Frost became a raiding spec, more people preferred it over Arcane.

There's a perception that Arcane is still as mindless as in Icecrown Citadel, and that it's not attractive in any way. Admittedly, it could use a graphical touch-up, even though some newer stuff like Mark looks amazing, and Nether Tempest is still cool to see.

[Komman]

Not so bad, but a more pertinent question then maybe, why spec Arcane when Fire appears to be more flexible in terms of when and where you can use it? What does Arcane bring to the table that Fire does not?

Does Arcane now only exist for that small group of players that have always liked it?

I don't think Arcane exists only for some small niche of players. Right now, it is definitely more intricate and feels more restrictive. I agree that if you do a side by side comparison, Fire is more straight forward and versatile. The difference between us is the philosophy. I take the viewpoint that classes are more defined by their weaknesses than their strengths. In that sense, I feel like Fire is the outlier instead of Arcane, because it is so strong in a wide variety of situations.

From a design perspective, I think Fire is weakly defined because as players we are unable to feel where it is lacking. This isn't for a lack of trying from devs, or lack of theme (or if you prefer the word, "fantasy"). The mechanical design makes it clear where Fire is supposed to feel weak:

- It should feel "uncontrolled". Ignite's wild and uncontrolled spreading, along with the binary nature of crits, should be promoting this feeling. Right now, this doesn't work because of the deterministic and predictable combo of 100% Crit Combustion + Flame On + Phoenix Flames combination. Ignite also spreads too frequently for us to ask questions about whether it will reach something. In a weird way, it has become very dependable.

- It should feel "delayed". What I mean by this is that Fire's damage is backloaded (in Ignite), so you should feel less powerful when dealing with mechanics such as short lived priority adds. This was very noticeable in encounters such as Spoils of Pandaria in MoP. Right now, this is compromised by two issues. The first of them is tuning - when you deal so much damage with direct impact spells, losing half of your 10 second ignite doesn't seem to matter anymore. The second is Pyroblast's high frequency - when you look at past expansions, Fire often had trouble getting Pyroblasts to proc at the right time for adds. With Fire Blast no longer requiring cast time and us casting Pyroblast almost twice at frequent, it is now really hard to catch Fire with its "pants off".

It's not just our class that feels this way about Fire. Ask most of the other ranged classes what they feel about Fire Mages in raiding, and they'll tell you the same thing with a different words: "They're just so good at everything". This to me is the bigger problem that needs fixing, instead of Arcane needing to be "brought up" to Fire's level.

This point is exactly the problem if our mana regen is boosted by our haste should we not be getting back to max mana in faster return?

At least they could boost the out of combat regeneration for us. I think that for what it is would solve allot of the fussing that my self and many others seem to have.

Our mana regen is no longer boosted by haste. This was part of a passive effect called "Nether Attunement", and it has been removed in Legion.

[yarafx1]

Arcane has always existed for a tiny base of players who really want to play it. Not sure if any other class has this disparity or bias towards a single spec. Fire is something mages want to play and there are always massive complaints when Arcane outperforms Fire in such a way that raiders are forced to swap to Arcane for progress or optimal performance. Arcane had a three expansion advantage over Frost, yet when Frost became a raiding spec, more people preferred it over Arcane.

There's a perception that Arcane is still as mindless as in Icecrown Citadel, and that it's not attractive in any way. Admittedly, it could use a graphical touch-up, even though some newer stuff like Mark looks amazing, and Nether Tempest is still cool to see.

I feel like this may be the case and for some that was the scenario. Arcane as a whole felt very right in WOD, it was obvious when the better players we're piloting the spec. I feel even then you could pull decent numbers even if you weren't the best with keeping up with your mana and your burn, conserve. Now its just mind numbing needing to drop stacks constantly to be able to keep casting, or worse just not casting for 1-2 seconds to let your mana regen to point where you can keep up your spells.

As a whole this just feels wrong, the only reason the spec was even parsing so high was the ability the spam nether tempest at stupid high amounts of haste which took and insane skill cap and now they've nerf'd that as well.

But this is just ranting on a whole and yet to be seen in raids we will know tomorrow when all the parses come in from raids tonight how impactful this is for raiding. Even if its okay still doesn't affect how bad it feels in mythic + dungeons.

[Deleted]

It's mastery % multiplied by 1.2, not Mastery % +20%. That would be an insane buff - more than 20% extra damage to a spec? It would be HFC Arcane on fights shorter than 3 minutes again.

That's exactly what Arcane is supposed to be. The single target and burst monster it has been in HFC.

Also don't forget that Prophecy of Fear was a major reason for why the spec was considered OP, while if you didn't have that trinket you couldn't really compete with other top specs on most fights. Conclusion is that Arcane wasn't OP at all, the trinket in combination with Missiles was.

[yarafx1]

Our mana regen is no longer boosted by haste. This was part of a passive effect called "Nether Attunement", and it has been removed in Legion.

You're correct its no longer boosted by haste but now its boosted by mastery instead.

- - - Updated - - -

That's exactly what Arcane is supposed to be. The single target and burst monster it has been in HFC.

Also don't forget that Prophecy of Fear was a major reason for why the spec was considered OP, while if you didn't have that trinket you couldn't really compete with other top specs on most fights. Conclusion is that Arcane wasn't OP at all, the trinket in combination with Missiles was.

Which right now its good on AOE and pretty piss on single target.

[Deleted]

Our mana regen is no longer boosted by haste. This was part of a passive effect called "Nether Attunement", and it has been removed in Legion.

So much for glyphs and perks getting baked in. Mages got nearly none of it baked into their spells. Only other classes did.

[Komman]

That's exactly what Arcane is supposed to be. The single target and burst monster it has been in HFC.

Also don't forget that Prophecy of Fear was a major reason for why the spec was considered OP, while if you didn't have that trinket you couldn't really compete with other top specs on most fights. Conclusion is that Arcane wasn't OP at all, the trinket in combination with Missiles was.

Arcane in HFC probably ranks among the most overpowered classes in the history of the game. It didn't even need Prophecy of Fear to deliver those numbers, as we saw many players using Desecrated Shadowmoon Insignia and still generating absurd single target parses. I can't help but feel like you always have some ridiculous bias towards Arcane being underpowered. In an imaginary power scale of 1-10, if most of the forum used the word "balanced" to describe a 5, you use it to describe a 9 or 10.

No class is supposed to be a "monster" of anything. That applies even more so to single target damage, which is the most consistent requirement in the history of raiding. The final boss of each and every tier over the last 12 years, ranging all the way from Ragnaros to Archimonde, have ALL emphasized the power of single target DPS. To say that any class is "supposed to be" a "monster" at this basic metric, is to say that it should always be overpowered by default.

[Obelisk Kai]

Arcane has always existed for a tiny base of players who really want to play it. Not sure if any other class has this disparity or bias towards a single spec. Fire is something mages want to play and there are always massive complaints when Arcane outperforms Fire in such a way that raiders are forced to swap to Arcane for progress or optimal performance. Arcane had a three expansion advantage over Frost, yet when Frost became a raiding spec, more people preferred it over Arcane.

There's a perception that Arcane is still as mindless as in Icecrown Citadel, and that it's not attractive in any way. Admittedly, it could use a graphical touch-up, even though some newer stuff like Mark looks amazing, and Nether Tempest is still cool to see.

I have felt for a while that the Mage class has a flawed core design. As a comparison, when you think of Warlocks (in so many ways, our counterparts), each of their three specs has a core idea. Affliction is dots, Destruction is nukes and Demonology is pets. Each spec is in other words, underpinned by a big idea that the entire superstructure of the rest of the specialization can be built on.

Yet Mages don't have that. Rather than coming up with a big idea to build our specs around, they built them around the schools of damage we inflicted. And of those three, Arcane has always been the odd one out. You'd think that it wouldn't be, considering the Arcane Mage manipulates the very stuff of magic itself, but Fire and Frost could at least look to Warcraft 3 and their respective Hero classes (Blood Mage and Archmage) for inspiration. They substituted somewhat for the big idea that Warlock specs have. Arcane initially was a school for every spell Blizzard couldn't assign to Fire or Frost and had to be fashioned, expansion after expansion, piece by piece.

What we are left with is a spec adored by a few yet hated by most. Nobody seems to want to play Arcane if it can be helped. And yes, in Hellfire Citadel, I went Frost. It wasn't quite as good as Arcane, but it was a lot more fun.

A huge chunk of the Mage class has a strong antipathy towards the Arcane spec and it has to be because not enough people enjoy active mana management as a playstyle. But some do.

Now, I ask, is this a good idea?

You could argue that by leaving Arcane as it is and ensuring both it and Fire are viable you are catering to all tastes. You could also argue that while only a few like the mana management gameplay, that that is enough and that the alternative is just going to be another standard nuking spec as we have with Fire and Frost.

On the other hand, is it fair that one of our three specs is so off putting to so many? Maybe something more imaginative could be done with Arcane if Blizzard allowed themselves to experiment, just as they have with survival hunters in this expansion. Maybe survival hunters are a test to see player reaction to a full spec revamp with an eye to working on other specs in a similar position next time around? Arcane is arguably in such a position after all.

I don't think Arcane exists only for some small niche of players. Right now, it is definitely more intricate and feels more restrictive. I agree that if you do a side by side comparison, Fire is more straight forward and versatile. The difference between us is the philosophy. I take the viewpoint that classes are more defined by their weaknesses than their strengths. In that sense, I feel like Fire is the outlier instead of Arcane, because it is so strong in a wide variety of situations.

From a design perspective, I think Fire is weakly defined because as players we are unable to feel where it is lacking. This isn't for a lack of trying from devs, or lack of theme (or if you prefer the word, "fantasy"). The mechanical design makes it clear where Fire is supposed to feel weak:

- It should feel "uncontrolled". Ignite's wild and uncontrolled spreading, along with the binary nature of crits, should be promoting this feeling. Right now, this doesn't work because of the deterministic and predictable combo of 100% Crit Combustion + Flame On + Phoenix Flames combination. Ignite also spreads too frequently for us to ask questions about whether it will reach something. In a weird way, it has become very dependable.

- It should feel "delayed". What I mean by this is that Fire's damage is backloaded (in Ignite), so you should feel less powerful when dealing with mechanics such as short lived priority adds. This was very noticeable in encounters such as Spoils of Pandaria in MoP. Right now, this is compromised by two issues. The first of them is tuning - when you deal so much damage with direct impact spells, losing half of your 10 second ignite doesn't seem to matter anymore. The second is Pyroblast's high frequency - when you look at past expansions, Fire often had trouble getting Pyroblasts to proc at the right time for adds. With Fire Blast no longer requiring cast time and us casting Pyroblast almost twice at frequent, it is now really hard to catch Fire with its "pants off".

It's not just our class that feels this way about Fire. Ask most of the other ranged classes what they feel about Fire Mages in raiding, and they'll tell you the same thing with a different words: "They're just so good at everything". This to me is the bigger problem that needs fixing, instead of Arcane needing to be "brought up" to Fire's level.

I am not so sure on Arcane not existing for some small niche of players. Historically it has been an unpopular spec, each time it's been ahead in raids there has been a lot of complaining about it and then when Fire came back later on in the expansion, a lot of rejoicing. If I recall right, both Cataclysm and Mists followed this pattern.

And don't forget, for most of WOD when Fire was non-viable and the choice was between Arcane and an actually viable Frost a LOT of players (myself included) went Frost rather than deal with Arcane.

Arcane is just not liked...it's workable...you know it'll do the job but you just don't want to spend time with it. I guess if I was mean you could call it the Hilary Clinton of Mage specs. Is it truly fair that this spec is maintained to function this way because of a few?
But if not this way, then how would it play distinctively? Bit of a conundrum that.

As for Fire being strong everywhere, well I do have complaints there too. I am not overly fond of how Combustion works, it makes Flame On mandatory, makes me hoard my Phoenix Flames rather than liberally spending and it feels like they took one of Arcane's signature themes, the burst phase, and transplanted it into Fire. I wish fire was more of a free wheeling, reactive spec with a strong emphasis on crits and ignite rather than the burst focused one it is now. But that's just my personal feelings on the issue.

[giniyo]

kinda off but on topic, i was thinking bout leveling my mage as arcane, as for dungeons, isnt clearing on trash with barrage kinda decent damage wise and to save mana? or would ae spam still outweigh it even with the AB talent and trait?

[yarafx1]

kinda off but on topic, i was thinking bout leveling my mage as arcane, as for dungeons, isnt clearing on trash with barrage kinda decent damage wise and to save mana? or would ae spam still outweigh it even with the AB talent and trait?

The general consensus seems to be 5 AE / Barrage to be able to keep up mana during trash.