Shadow Buffs.. lol

[Al Gorefiend]

Buff mind sear damage by 500% and I still won't use it. It's a crappy AoE and locks us into being incapable of casting.


Honestly. Give Shadow the talent PvP gives them that spreads SW:P, put it in place of that crappy void lord talent, and replace the PvP talent with void tendrils or psychic horror. You just made Spriests happy.

[Rumstein]

It's funny how data showing a class is an outlier needing nerfs can change in about 12 hours in a way that is entirely unrelated to the levels of whines about them

Warlocks have been a dps underdog for months and they complain about our complaints.

Actual data shows OP classes need nerfing and 12 hours of incessant bitching gets called "constructive criticism"

Warlocks are bottom of the barrel and we get 10%

SP's are shown to need a nerf in real data, and they get buffed. lmao

Mind sear, by 80%. REALLY???

Do you even know what Mind Sear does?

It dealt 50k AoE damage over 5 seconds.

50k over 5 seconds.

10k dps per target.

Now it's 18k dps per target.

That 80% number should simply tell you how trash the skill was before.

Do you see that Demonology is topping the sims now?

[Al Gorefiend]

Do you even know what Mind Sear does?

It dealt 50k AoE damage over 5 seconds.

50k over 5 seconds.

10k dps per target.

Now it's 18k dps per target.

That 80% number should simply tell you how trash the skill was before.

Do you see that Demonology is topping the sims now?

That, and it's a channel, locking us out of doing our actual rotation during the duration of the channel. Clicking the mind sear button nerfed yourself. Even binding the mind sear spell to your keys made you a worse player out of accidently fat-fingering it. Mind sear is a pathetic spell.

Don't even give S priests an AoE, I really don't care, our nichè can be single-target. Pretending mind sear deserves a spot in our ability book is bad.

[davesignal]

Simulationcraft's non-S2M profile on their front page is now using Mind Spike. Hmm..

[Djriff]

What do people thing of this spec post-change ?

Fortress of the Mind
Void Ray
Shadowy Insight
Shadow Crash
Mind Spike

ToF still wins per sims last night. AS > SI. SC is alright in dungeons, but PI will net you more DPS overall, especially when the tank moves mobs out of your SC.

MS is definitely ahead of LotV, by a landslide now. They really need to fix that.

Still ideal to run RoS with StM, you need the insanity generation.

It shouldn't. They need to just scrap it and come up with something new. If you like StM, you are just wrong.

So liking an ability that promotes strategic planning of GCD's and admittedly a decent internet connection is bad? I like StM in raids, the other talent Mind Spike has it's place.

I don't understand their thoughts on dispersion.

1. If they are trying to reduce our time that we can possibly benefit from S2M, why not just reduce the buff's duration from 3min to 2min?

2. If they are trying to get people to stop using dispersion as an offensive CD rather than one used to increase our time in S2M, then they need to compensate with more insanity generation somewhere while in VF

1. That wouldn't really fix it. It also wouldn't be worth the 10m CD at that point.
2. The main intent was to stop us from using dispersion as offensive CD. Eitherway, you'll end up using it to save your bacon in StM, which is nice as we can now handle at least 1 mechanic for 6 seconds.

Here's a question: Surrender is obviously still the hotness for raiding, but is Mind Spike now better than Legacy of the Void for dungeons? If you're just comparing Mind Spike to Legacy, Spike's looking a lot more rosy now.

See above, in short yes.

They noted that are going to change it later, but they can't do a quick fix without screwing the class. S2M will likely have a much shorter duration & cd, but without the death penalty.

Honestly doubtful, considering StM most likely evolved from our 2m CD for instant VF.

No it isn't. Mind Spike is a damage and insanity loss in Void Form (Due to Mind Flay's 3 ticks in 1st GCD nature), and barely a gain when you run 2 GCDs back to back. 2+ Targets Sear outperforms both Flay and Spike (Flay = 240%/target over 2 GCDs, Spike = 270% MT + 90% OT over 2 GCDs ignoring the detonation requirement, Sear = 216% per target over 2 GCDs and generates 6 insanity PER TARGET vs 4 flat).

This is horribly wrong. Mind Spike performs the same insanity generation wise per GCD as mindflay with the added bonus of an ST + AoE explosion.

The Sear part is correct, it's now a gain to sear at 2+ targets for insanity generation purposes, not necessarily upfront damage.

The dispersion change is welcomed by most people. It returns our only defensive cd, instead of using it offensively. You can still use it exactly the same, it just delays 100 stacks by a few seconds. They don't really need to compensate with more insanity gain atm, higher haste and crit levels will do that for us, and then theres T19 2P for more coming up. People could already sustain 2m30s, so with the extra stats and 2p they can get even higher.

You don't use it the same. Now you use it to extend voidform 6 seconds so your abilities can come off CD and you can get 8-10+ seconds of extra DPS or if you need to pop it early to stop your drain while you handle a mechanic. While it's a hit to StM still, I prefer this version of dispersion so I can keep it as an get out of jail free card.

The "right people" didn't say it. Bliz doesn't listen to most people, even if they are saying good things. There's people who are elected to speak for us, to read all the community feedback and condense that into bullet points. Highly doubtful that any negative feedback about StM made it into those bullet points with the proper level of concern that it deserved. Also I get a strong feeling StM was billed as a "class attractor". It got content producers in the wow community stirring up a buzz about it, bringing players back to the class and possibly even the game (ex. See Preach Gaming's reviews of shadow all throughout beta). "Popular people" were only gushing over StM - the negative feedback probably looked like Negative Nancies and Doubting Thomases...

Except that it did. Sure there was plenty of gushing over StM, but it was apparent from the get go that it was too powerful in comparison and was mentioned numerous times in the alpha/beta threads, and it's still being mentioned now with no change. Has nothing to do with the "right people" saying it, has everything to do with blizz electing not to change it the same way they elected to ignore Void Entropy for and entire expansion

Do you even know what Mind Sear does?

Yes, it's a better filler than mindflay in aoe situations. We are a dot class, not a 1 button aoe class. We don't excel at burst stacked aoe where targets die in 3 seconds, if you want that, then shadow isn't the class for you. That is our weak point and we should have a weak point. That being said, I wouldn't mind being able to spread my dots with sear baseline, would make it much more bearable.

Do you see that Demonology is topping the sims now?

In a patchwerkk environment where they can literally sit and spam their rotation. In reality? They won't

[Deleted]

ToF still wins per sims last night. AS > SI. SC is alright in dungeons, but PI will net you more DPS overall, especially when the tank moves mobs out of your SC.

MS is definitely ahead of LotV, by a landslide now. They really need to fix that.

Still ideal to run RoS with StM, you need the insanity generation.

So liking an ability that promotes strategic planning of GCD's and admittedly a decent internet connection is bad? I like StM in raids, the other talent Mind Spike has it's place.

1. That wouldn't really fix it. It also wouldn't be worth the 10m CD at that point.
2. The main intent was to stop us from using dispersion as offensive CD. Eitherway, you'll end up using it to save your bacon in StM, which is nice as we can now handle at least 1 mechanic for 6 seconds.

See above, in short yes.

Honestly doubtful, considering StM most likely evolved from our 2m CD for instant VF.

This is horribly wrong. Mind Spike performs the same insanity generation wise per GCD as mindflay with the added bonus of an ST + AoE explosion.

The Sear part is correct, it's now a gain to sear at 2+ targets for insanity generation purposes, not necessarily upfront damage.

You don't use it the same. Now you use it to extend voidform 6 seconds so your abilities can come off CD and you can get 8-10+ seconds of extra DPS or if you need to pop it early to stop your drain while you handle a mechanic. While it's a hit to StM still, I prefer this version of dispersion so I can keep it as an get out of jail free card.

Except that it did. Sure there was plenty of gushing over StM, but it was apparent from the get go that it was too powerful in comparison and was mentioned numerous times in the alpha/beta threads, and it's still being mentioned now with no change. Has nothing to do with the "right people" saying it, has everything to do with blizz electing not to change it the same way they elected to ignore Void Entropy for and entire expansion

Yes, it's a better filler than mindflay in aoe situations. We are a dot class, not a 1 button aoe class. We don't excel at burst stacked aoe where targets die in 3 seconds, if you want that, then shadow isn't the class for you. That is our weak point and we should have a weak point. That being said, I wouldn't mind being able to spread my dots with sear baseline, would make it much more bearable.

In a patchwerkk environment where they can literally sit and spam their rotation. In reality? They won't

Only change I would love to see is mindspike stacks being put on us instead of the target and that we can release that aoe with a seperate ability ( not mindblast).

[Djriff]

Only change I would love to see is mindspike stacks being put on us instead of the target and that we can release that aoe with a seperate ability ( not mindblast).

That would be nice, but honestly MS AoE is fine as is.

[philefluxx]

Allright, please, enlighten us "ignorant" people then: How do you balance it?
This is is gonna be interesting.

Been thinking a lot about this and I think what might actually work better is to remove the death mechanic from S2M, make it prevent you from going into VF for like a minute or some sort of other penalty instead, and decrease the buff it provides, and make it executable only at 35%. This way if you fuck up S2M you can still pick up your DPS a bit because you're not dead, but you will not be able to use VF so cant restack haste buff. It still has a skill curve to maximize your DPS, doesn't screw you if boss mechanics force you to drop too early, and doesn't make you useless if that's the case while also not allowing you to DPS at full potential if you do fuck up.

[Djriff]

Except that if you pop it at 35% the boss will die. Alternatively I would just pop it on the first add that hit 35% then continue on with the fight.

[Segus1992]

Why does StM even exist tho.

Because it's a fun and awesome ability. What needs to happen is that the other talents are improved to be on par (and maybe Shadow as a whole is nerfed to compensate) so that people who can't appreciate it can use something else.

[Theed]

Because it's a fun and awesome ability. What needs to happen is that the other talents are improved to be on par (and maybe Shadow as a whole is nerfed to compensate) so that people who can't appreciate it can use something else.

Opinions. I think it is unbalancable, not fun at all and in other words the worst talent ever designed.
I can't actually find the words just how much i hate S2M.

I hope they redesign it.

[Video Games]

The "right people" didn't say it. Bliz doesn't listen to most people, even if they are saying good things. There's people who are elected to speak for us, to read all the community feedback and condense that into bullet points. Highly doubtful that any negative feedback about StM made it into those bullet points with the proper level of concern that it deserved. Also I get a strong feeling StM was billed as a "class attractor". It got content producers in the wow community stirring up a buzz about it, bringing players back to the class and possibly even the game (ex. See Preach Gaming's reviews of shadow all throughout beta). "Popular people" were only gushing over StM - the negative feedback probably looked like Negative Nancies and Doubting Thomases...

I didn't like s2m all that much. I switched from my 10 years of mage/warrior raiding because there was no stupid rng that all the other classes seem to have now and the knaifu.

[Segus1992]

Opinions. I think it is unbalancable, not fun at all and in other words the worst talent ever designed.
I can't actually find the words just how much i hate S2M.

I hope they redesign it.

Like I said, buff the other abilities so that the bads who only choose what's best have alternatives.

[l33t]

Like I said, buff the other abilities so that the bads who only choose what's best have alternatives.

If I were you, I'd refrain from calling people names just because they dislike something you like.

[zito]

Simulationcraft's non-S2M profile on their front page is now using Mind Spike. Hmm..

Because mind spike does more damage than flay. Especially when in void form and if your GCD is either 1 tick of flay or 1 mind spike as a filler the mind spike wins.

[Djriff]

Because mind spike does more damage than flay. Especially when in void form and if your GCD is either 1 tick of flay or 1 mind spike as a filler the mind spike wins.

Well it also has to do with LotV being ridiculously behind Mind Spike now.

[darkxiao]

MS is definitely ahead of LotV, by a landslide now. They really need to fix that.

Will it still end up being such an increase even with the Call of the Void artifact trait? If so that would suck and make the gold trait kinda useless unless running StM

EDIT: Ohh wow nvm! I just noticed it proccing off mind spike as well. Yay! lol.

[Djriff]

Will it still end up being such an increase even with the Call of the Void artifact trait? If so that would suck and make the gold trait kinda useless unless running StM

The quick sims I did last night were with T19H "BiS" gear and all artifact traits. Still simmed ahead. For that matter why wouldn't it? Mindspike can still summon the tentacle.

[zito]

Well it also has to do with LotV being ridiculously behind Mind Spike now.

Was it ever behind LotV? I only really helped if you were around 90+ insanity as anything lower and your void form up time would fall but that was incredibly niche while mind spike could do extra cleave damage and fits better as a GCD filler than 1 tick of mind flay.

[Theed]

Like I said, buff the other abilities so that the bads who only choose what's best have alternatives.

To me dieing in a game is weakness and failure. You die and can go afk until the fight has ended. It is bad desig and for me it's not fun at all. It is unusable in pvp too, which is my main focus of the game.