Are Pugs / Group Finder Groups Worse than ever?

[Battlebeard]

Hi,

This is not a QQ thread, I just want to discuss this.

Have anyone else noticed an extreme decline in PuG quality?

Due to working 24/7 I can't guildraid and I am forced to PuG. I can't schedule any time for a regular PuG either, so every raid it's new people.

But at the moment, it seems impossible to do anything in PuGs. The groups are so bad, that I wonder how some people even managed to figure out how to log in, or like... breathe...

I know of course that the raid is still considered brand new. But that is not the problem. This is not centered around boss mechanics and people not knowing tacts. It's on a more basic level.

As a few example of what I mean, I was in multiple PuGs for EN Normal mode the other day. One group killed 1:st boss and one group disbanded after like 5 wipes. The first group later disbanded on Ursoc. Another disbanded at the Eye boss and a fourth again at Ursoc. In most groups groups had about 20 people. We had:
- Basically 0 interupting, it was me (90%) and some other guy with 10% of the interupts. Rest had 0.
- People doing 50-100k DPS, with 840+ gear.
- People standing in things, until they die. They get ressed and then stand in it again.
- Random leaving groups, during fights, before fights etc, for no reason and not even saying a word. (This always happened but more then ever).
- Never running back during deaths, random AFKs and general slacking, more than ever.

And the thing is, they were all kind of decent geared, 840+ with like 5-15k achievement points, SHOWING that the character is NOT BRAND NEW created.

And the most strange part is the TOTAL LACK OF COMMUNICATION. Some people NEVER write a thing. Not ONE word. Not even a reply in whisper. They roll for gear, but no other sign of communication. If they get kicked, not a responce, just HSing. If they die, they aren't asking for res. If you tell them something insulting, they aren't even defending themselves or getting upset. It's litterally like playing with zombies. All leaders were silent too except like "Lets go" or "Roll for this".

This also happened in a few groups earlier last week, that were basically as bad. Though, most of the "badness" were due to lack of knowledge for fights then, but still lots of this going on.

My point is, these problems last raid arent't related to a new raid OR to the players being brand new. It seem to be a huge lack of skill/dedication/interest or w/e to do the raids properly.

Anyone else noticed this? Is this the end of PuGs in WoW? Is the raid too hard? Have the game made people lazier or worse? What is going on?!

AND YES, these groups all looked promising in Finder too. Most called like "EN Normal, 840+ Smooth Clear" with description: "Link achiv or know tactics, ML, Need X and X, bring consumeables" etc. They weren't like in Caps lock or lacking any description.

AND NO, I can't start my own group, I simply don't have the time AND EVEN IF I DID, I believe this would still be a problem, BECAUSE these baddies look fairly good on paper, with gear, achivs etc. It would be almost impossible to sort them out.

[Ahmy]

For me pug groups are same as they were before, you will have good groups that give the boss many tries while you will find one that get break after a wind blow.
I can't even say TS or Discord groups are better than none voice chat group because for an example I killed some bosses with none voice chat group while the voice chat ones failed.

(my comment include hc raid)

[kamuimac]

Hi,

This is not a QQ thread, I just want to discuss this.

Have anyone else noticed an extreme decline in PuG quality?

Due to working 24/7 I can't guildraid and I am forced to PuG. I can't schedule any time for a regular PuG either, so every raid it's new people.

But at the moment, it seems impossible to do anything in PuGs. The groups are so bad, that I wonder how some people even managed to figure out how to log in, or like... breathe...

I know of course that the raid is still considered brand new. But that is not the problem. This is not centered around boss mechanics and people not knowing tacts. It's on a more basic level.

As a few example of what I mean, I was in multiple PuGs for EN Normal mode the other day. One group killed 1:st boss and one group disbanded after like 5 wipes. The first group later disbanded on Ursoc. Another disbanded at the Eye boss and a fourth again at Ursoc. In most groups groups had about 20 people. We had:
- Basically 0 interupting, it was me (90%) and some other guy with 10% of the interupts. Rest had 0.
- People doing 50-100k DPS, with 840+ gear.
- People standing in things, until they die. They get ressed and then stand in it again.
- Random leaving groups, during fights, before fights etc, for no reason and not even saying a word. (This always happened but more then ever).
- Never running back during deaths, random AFKs and general slacking, more than ever.

And the thing is, they were all kind of decent geared, 840+ with like 5-15k achievement points, SHOWING that the character is NOT BRAND NEW created.

And the most strange part is the TOTAL LACK OF COMMUNICATION. Some people NEVER write a thing. Not ONE word. Not even a reply in whisper. They roll for gear, but no other sign of communication. If they get kicked, not a responce, just HSing. If they die, they aren't asking for res. If you tell them something insulting, they aren't even defending themselves or getting upset. It's litterally like playing with zombies. All leaders were silent too except like "Lets go" or "Roll for this".

This also happened in a few groups earlier last week, that were basically as bad. Though, most of the "badness" were due to lack of knowledge for fights then, but still lots of this going on.

My point is, these problems last raid arent't related to a new raid OR to the players being brand new. It seem to be a huge lack of skill/dedication/interest or w/e to do the raids properly.

Anyone else noticed this? Is this the end of PuGs in WoW? Is the raid too hard? Have the game made people lazier or worse? What is going on?!

AND YES, these groups all looked promising in Finder too. Most called like "EN Normal, 840+ Smooth Clear" with description: "Link achiv or know tactics, ML, Need X and X, bring consumeables" etc. They weren't like in Caps lock or lacking any description.

AND NO, I can't start my own group, I simply don't have the time AND EVEN IF I DID, I believe this would still be a problem, BECAUSE these baddies look fairly good on paper, with gear, achivs etc. It would be almost impossible to sort them out.

and this is exackly what happens when normal mode is done by intended audience not by mythic raiders alts - anyone claiming that normal is easy is just retarded enough to not know how to analyze average player skills and discussing with people like that is pointless as they will never understand how far above average player their skills are

[Lioo]

Take your time to armory check. Will save you a lot more time.

[thilicen]

Honestly Normal is in a very good place. If people expect most pugs to breeze through it in one 3-4 hour raid they really haven't gotten the point.

[Narzok]

and this is exackly what happens when normal mode is done by intended audience not by mythic raiders alts - anyone claiming that normal is easy is just retarded enough to not know how to analyze average player skills and discussing with people like that is pointless as they will never understand how far above average player their skills are

SO.MUCH.THIS!

i can't remember how often i tried to explain to good raiders that there are people who struggle with things like kicking or doing more than 60th percentile damage.
but i always got crap responses like "lol, ClassXY is faceroll, any idiot can do 90th percentile, rofl" or similar.

when someone is bad at sports, it's completely normal, but a bad wow player? RAGE

[Puri]

I cannot really say I share your experience, but I think the reason is quite obvious.

Blizzard is trying hard to drive people away from LFR back to self-organized raiding. They are doing this by drastically lowering the requirements for normal difficulty raiding, right now I am certain mop/wod prenerf lfr was harder than EN normal.

Additionally there is no LFR available at the moment, and people are fairly well geared just by running some mythics and wqs, at the point that gear progression is just a matter of warforged/titanforged luck. So to improve themselves, normal raiding is the only logical choice.

So people treat normal raiding just like they treat LFR, something you can get in or out whenever you like, something you do while watching TV or playing civ because it still is working and the personal loot system makes clear that they cannot be sanctionated by refusing them loot after a bad performance.

I am not certain if it will lead to an improvement of the playerbase, or if it will water down the easy raid difficulties even further.

[Doomchicken]

So, you expect the entire pug group to be experienced in the raid before doing the raid? I mean sure, if people are serious raiders they will watch videos and prepare for the bosses through various guides, but I'd bet a large section of the people using the group finder aren't that serious when it comes to raiding and have no idea what the hell they're doing. Try in a couple weeks and compare when people get more experience?

[Deleted]

SO.MUCH.THIS!

i can't remember how often i tried to explain to good raiders that there are people who struggle with things like kicking or doing more than 60th percentile damage.
but i always got crap responses like "lol, ClassXY is faceroll, any idiot can do 90th percentile, rofl" or similar.

when someone is bad at sports, it's completely normal, but a bad wow player? RAGE

I think it goes even deeper like this. It is not like People have the wrong estimation on bad raiders, People do not have a clear perception of any skill difference in games in General (lets say ask a silver lol Player how his skill difference to Diamond is, and then prepare to laugh) , so it is very basically hard to grasp this concept even in Close quarters.

And OP does prove this very well, on one Hand he feels pretty clearly entiteled to PuG raidcontent without time commitment , sees 0 failures in his own part (damn it he interrupted he carried this shit mate where is the mythic loot!) on the other Hand he clearly believes having 840+ does guarantuee anything (i have plenty of time spend with my alt in rnd hc and pug mythics) totally ignoring that with warforged/titanforged proccs and worldquests someone pulling 80k dps on an outlawrogue (no offence i think it is pretty much the easiest to be mediacore dps atm with) can get 840 in 1 week easy .

[Deleted]

i don't know man

i did like what, maybe 10 heroic dungeons via LFG tool , never meet 1 dps to do 50-100k , all were above 100k on all boss fights or trash packs

i have a 820 boomkin , never went under 100k dps on any fight

did not tried LFG raid yet

[lucred]

I have to agree with the OP. The last few days in particular have been... depressing. Just doing freaking HEROIC DUNGEONS I got one group where the average dps was 80k. On skovald the HIGH DPS was 70k and the tank was 90k. If you have 810+ gear to get into heroics there is NO excuse for doing 40k dps on a boss fight. Skovald took 4.5 MINUTES to kill. I have been in a few runs where I was the only person interrupting anything, while the others are doing damage in the 90-110k range and ignoring all mechanics. It has been quite frustrating.

[fengosa]

If you're just grabbing random players and making a go of it then you're still going to have troubles on normal. I think if you want to up your chances you need a group with voice chat and a raid leader who can give a half decent explanation of the fight, call out important events, set up markers etc.

If you don't have that you'll have to wait until people have more experience and gear to knock the fights out efficiently.

[Battlebeard]

So, you expect the entire pug group to be experienced in the raid before doing the raid? I mean sure, if people are serious raiders they will watch videos and prepare for the bosses through various guides, but I'd bet a large section of the people using the group finder aren't that serious when it comes to raiding and have no idea what the hell they're doing. Try in a couple weeks and compare when people get more experience?

Did you even read what I wrote? I clearly said:

I know of course that the raid is still considered brand new. But that is not the problem. This is not centered around boss mechanics and people not knowing tacts. It's on a more basic level.

Meaning this is NOT about the tactics or the bosses.

It's about general gameplay. Decent damage/healing, interupts, awareness, not standing in things is BASICS and not bound to any specific raid.

[kamuimac]

I cannot really say I share your experience, but I think the reason is quite obvious.

Blizzard is trying hard to drive people away from LFR back to self-organized raiding. They are doing this by drastically lowering the requirements for normal difficulty raiding, right now I am certain mop/wod prenerf lfr was harder than EN normal.

Additionally there is no LFR available at the moment, and people are fairly well geared just by running some mythics and wqs, at the point that gear progression is just a matter of warforged/titanforged luck. So to improve themselves, normal raiding is the only logical choice.

So people treat normal raiding just like they treat LFR, something you can get in or out whenever you like, something you do while watching TV or playing civ because it still is working and the personal loot system makes clear that they cannot be sanctionated by refusing them loot after a bad performance.

I am not certain if it will lead to an improvement of the playerbase, or if it will water down the easy raid difficulties even further.

it wont - it never did and it never will - overwhelming majority want easy 1 button pushing modes not mythic - they never wanted harder modes and never will want - if blizzard really did cater to lfr audience instead mythic radiers they could have 20-30mln subs atm not 3-5 mln that they do have

[Sencha]

Most pugs are casual players and most casual players don't even interrupt, don't read boss abilities and barely know how to play their class efficiently. Also they're just looking for free stuff and don't like the word 'effort' so they'll leave after 1-2 wipes.

[kamuimac]

I have to agree with the OP. The last few days in particular have been... depressing. Just doing freaking HEROIC DUNGEONS I got one group where the average dps was 80k. On skovald the HIGH DPS was 70k and the tank was 90k. If you have 810+ gear to get into heroics there is NO excuse for doing 40k dps on a boss fight. Skovald took 4.5 MINUTES to kill. I have been in a few runs where I was the only person interrupting anything, while the others are doing damage in the 90-110k range and ignoring all mechanics. It has been quite frustrating.

there is perfect excuse - people are really that bad in game - people who are able to push 120k with 810 are tiny insignificant minority - yet everything in this game is catered to this minority - its fucked up buisness model -_- look at overwatch how much more popular and much more profit it brings blzizard - why ? because its aimed at casuals - look at loL with their 100 mln + playerbase - why because its casual fun game - wow with its inclination for mythic crybabies is doomed to fail

[ThunderTaco]

snip

The raid has been there for like one week. It has always been like that.

[Sencha]

there is perfect excuse - people are really that bad in game - people who are able to push 120k with 810 are tiny insignificant minority - yet everything in this game is catered to this minority - its fucked up buisness model -_- look at overwatch how much more popular and much more profit it brings blzizard - why ? because its aimed at casuals - look at loL with their 100 mln + playerbase - why because its casual fun game - wow with its inclination for mythic crybabies is doomed to fail

That's the opposite. WoW is failing due to casual crybabies. Veterans have already left, with their subs.

[Statix]

I have pugged EN normal and got to 6/7 without food, flasks and voice chat. Sure, it wasn't smooth and required multiple groups, but I got there. It requires a bit of dedication. Sadly, there will always be those players that perform horribly, even with better gear than you, and not due to the limitations of their class or spec; simply because they suck.

I was in a group where a Fire Mage was doing 90k DPS, but he was the raid leader. Not a great one, because I was explaining all tactics and basically leading, but yea. That stuff happens. I guess that's what you need to accept if you pug.

[Lioo]

I have pugged EN normal and got to 6/7 without food, flasks and voice chat. Sure, it wasn't smooth and required multiple groups, but I got there. It requires a bit of dedication. Sadly, there will always be those players that perform horribly, even with better gear than you, and not due to the limitations of their class or spec; simply because they suck.

I was in a group where a Fire Mage was doing 90k DPS, but he was the raid leader. Not a great one, because I was explaining all tactics and basically leading, but yea. That stuff happens. I guess that's what you need to accept if you pug.

Why you carry such kind of people?