[LEGION]: FROST Death Knight

[Clash the DK]

@Gr1mdark

Are you trying to keep IT up while using the Frostscythe Machine Gun rotation? If so, that is why it might be under-performing for you. Frozen Pulse up-time is more important than IT. You have to look at IT as more of a bonus. The MG build (2213213) will absolutely out-perform anything else at 2 or more targets. The more targets, the more that Frostscythe will pull ahead.

As for single target, the Obliterate build (2213223) with a Crit>Haste>Mastery stat priority should edge out the MG rotation, but not by much.

Personally, I'll be gearing towards the MG build because the AoE difference is just too much to ignore. I would be a fool not to roll Frostscythe in Mythic+ which is where my focus will lie for the time being. If you are raiding, you might want to have a Crit/Haste set for encounters with no adds to squeak out every last drop of dps from the spec. But that can be a hassle, and your messing with muscle memory. Really up to the player.

[ant13]

Frost is still a piece of shit...
Let Frost die, go UH and be "happy"...

The more I read those kind of posts the more I dislike (the current state of) unholy.
I used to play unholy in the past, when it was arguably the better spec, it still is right now, but you know something? I don't care, I m bored of that shit (always going back to unholy).

I was wondering today, should I respec to unholy? I ll do more damage, I will (or maybe) not be last on dps by much, but then I reconsidered that if every frost player is respeccing to unholy when frost is shit, then the frost spec will eventually die... I don't want that, I want the data from frost players to be there and to be seen by the blind devs of blizzard. I know we will never get the same love as other classes do, and don't be full by yourself too, unholy isn't a god spec either, it is better than frost, but not top, but we deserve some love for the shake of the game, even the game's most iconic character was a Dk what else do they want to fix some things? I believe we don't deserve that kind of treatment from their side, unfortunately, we will have to wait for one more expansion because the changes required, for frost to be viable and attractive as a dps spec, are huge. It seems like they treated frost spec as a one night stand, nothing more, nothing less.

[Favella]

The more I read those kind of posts the more I dislike (the current state of) unholy.
I used to play unholy in the past, when it was arguably the better spec, it still is right now, but you know something? I don't care, I m bored of that shit (always going back to unholy).

I was wondering today, should I respec to unholy? I ll do more damage, I will (or maybe) not be last on dps by much, but then I reconsidered that if every frost player is respeccing to unholy when frost is shit, then the frost spec will eventually die... I don't want that, I want the data from frost players to be there and to be seen by the blind devs of blizzard. I know we will never get the same love as other classes do, and don't be full by yourself too, unholy isn't a god spec either, it is better than frost, but not top, but we deserve some love for the shake of the game, even the game's most iconic character was a Dk what else do they want to fix some things? I believe we don't deserve that kind of treatment from their side, unfortunately, we will have to wait for one more expansion because the changes required, for frost to be viable and attractive as a dps spec, are huge. It seems like they treated frost spec as a one night stand, nothing more, nothing less.

I agree 100% with you, but how to play PVP and PVE with Frost in that state ?
100% of raid leaders ask me to play with UH.
100% of arena partners ask me to play with UH...

[ant13]

I agree 100% with you, but how to play PVP and PVE with Frost in that state ?
100% of raid leaders ask me to play with UH.
100% of arena partners ask me to play with UH...

This is a personal decision, I cannot answer for you, but if my raid leader asks me to spec UH, my answer will be bench me.

As a general note, I have to add, that finally after so many years and expansions blizzard achieved its goal: Bring the class, not the player!!!

[Gr1mdark]

@Gr1mdark

Are you trying to keep IT up while using the Frostscythe Machine Gun rotation? If so, that is why it might be under-performing for you. Frozen Pulse up-time is more important than IT. You have to look at IT as more of a bonus. The MG build (2213213) will absolutely out-perform anything else at 2 or more targets. The more targets, the more that Frostscythe will pull ahead.

As for single target, the Obliterate build (2213223) with a Crit>Haste>Mastery stat priority should edge out the MG rotation, but not by much.

Personally, I'll be gearing towards the MG build because the AoE difference is just too much to ignore. I would be a fool not to roll Frostscythe in Mythic+ which is where my focus will lie for the time being. If you are raiding, you might want to have a Crit/Haste set for encounters with no adds to squeak out every last drop of dps from the spec. But that can be a hassle, and your messing with muscle memory. Really up to the player.

You must have gotten me wrong.
I am not using FSc and I am not underperforming.

I was telling the guys arround here about the IT - RA build, for keeping the talons up and doing great dmg with Frost-stikes.

I am totally into it, and I will try it all out in two hours, when the raid begins.
Honestly I was playing frost for the last whole week in heroic 6/7 Nightmare
(we didnt manage to bring Xavi down yestday =C)

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hmm, thats a good idea

if you take FScythe over RA - is it still the best choice in first row to keep IT (you now have no RA, thus less runic, thus less FStrikes for IT) or would Murderous Efficiency become better ?

If you get more runes, you get less uptime on Frozen pulse, which is a great dmg-dealer now.
I wouldnt recomend it.

If you want to play with MuEf for aoe, you could take Freezing fog, to maximize Aoe dmg.
But MuEf and Pulse do not stack at all.

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As for single target, the Obliterate build (2213223) with a Crit>Haste>Mastery stat priority should edge out the MG rotation, but not by much.

I would say that Icecap is good talent if you get the bracers.
If not, you should tick to avalanche for now, as this gives you more sustain Aoe paired with good st perfomance.
And yeah Crit(30%) - Haste (20%) - Mastery is the way to go.

[Life-Binder]

If you get more runes, you get less uptime on Frozen pulse, which is a great dmg-dealer now.
I wouldnt recomend it.

yup, realized that after sending my post ^^


so its either:

2233223 - Obliterate spam, better on ST, still good on AoE

2233213 - all the same, only with FScythe .. you get less runic power, and thus a bit worse IT uptime (FPulse uptime should still be about the same as first ?), but FScythe is godlike (compared to Obliterate) on heavy AoE


question is which is better for ~2 targets ?

[Gr1mdark]

Do you guys know what?

Talking about all this specs and and possible variations of it made me think, isn't that the great aspect of the
game and class, when you have so much different things to change regarding the playstyle, encounter and pesonal prferences?

Which means, that Frost is hell of fun, if we can simply discuss all this, seeing different talents performing great in
different situations

Now I really look to today raid.
Just need that 1 legendary ... oh man, how I look forward to get one. I hope it'll drop before Legions last patch

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yup, realized that after sending my post ^^


so its either:

2233223 - Obliterate spam, better on ST, still good on AoE

2233213 - same, only with FScythe .. you get less runic power, and thus a bit worse IT uptime (FPulse uptime should still be about the same as first ?), but FScythe is godlike on heavy AoE


question is which is better for ~2 targets ?

I would say, for less than 4 targets - go with the standart one
If more than 4 - go for FSc.

I have no real nubers right now, it might that 3+ is also okay for FSc.
But for one or two, the standart one is the clear winner.

You have an uptime of pulse and RW, which gives you a great cleave.
You still get more Rp with oblit on one target (+RA)
than with FSc on two targets

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Looking forward to Il'gi.
Sindragosa+ Buffed RW and FSc with pulse should be so much fun

And dont forget Hypothermia, even with its poor proc.

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But for everything else I'll stick to 2-2-3-3-2-2-3.

[Dahti]

You must have gotten me wrong.
I am not using FSc and I am not underperforming.

I was telling the guys arround here about the IT - RA build, for keeping the talons up and doing great dmg with Frost-stikes.

I am totally into it, and I will try it all out in two hours, when the raid begins.
Honestly I was playing frost for the last whole week in heroic 6/7 Nightmare
(we didnt manage to bring Xavi down yestday =C)

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If you get more runes, you get less uptime on Frozen pulse, which is a great dmg-dealer now.
I wouldnt recomend it.

If you want to play with MuEf for aoe, you could take Freezing fog, to maximize Aoe dmg.
But MuEf and Pulse do not stack at all.

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I would say that Icecap is good talent if you get the bracers.
If not, you should tick to avalanche for now, as this gives you more sustain Aoe paired with good st perfomance.
And yeah Crit(30%) - Haste (20%) - Mastery is the way to go.

I was just doing some short beat on training dummies and I found MuEf and FP to go fine together.

Of the three first tier talents MuEff seems to be the least punishing. Not enough RP gen with FSc to keep IT up, and consuming stacks for a buffed FS doesn't feel right when all you do is frost damage. It also seemed to me that the extra FSc damage was outpacing the slightly less uptime on FP.

Though admittedly these were short parses, and MuEff may very likely be less dps.

I am around 29% crit 18% haste 30% mastery.

[Gr1mdark]

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I was just doing some short beat on training dummies and I found MuEf and FP to go fine together.

Of the three first tier talents MuEff seems to be the least punishing. Not enough RP gen with FSc to keep IT up, and consuming stacks for a buffed FS doesn't feel right when all you do is frost damage. It also seemed to me that the extra FSc damage was outpacing the slightly less uptime on FP.

Though admittedly these were short parses, and MuEff may very likely be less dps.

I am around 29% crit 18% haste 30% mastery.

It is okay, but the tallons will show a better result on longer fights.

Just look at the loop:

Faster attacks mean more Rp (RA) and more Km procs (even more Rp)
You use Rp to hit with frost stikes, which does the main dmg
Frost stikes gives you uptime on the tallons.

Just dont hit FS averytime you can, try to manage it so, that you refresh the talons with it.
Or if you are about to cap Rp.

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So the idea is to keep your runes down for Fp, while refreshing talons with Frost strike.
And get Rp with auto-atacks + Oblit when dumping runes

[Schizoide]

Just to clarify, people realize that the simcraft profile stacks 3 relics with Ambidexterity (+30% offhand damage to Frost Strike and Obliterate), not Nothing but the Boots (+18% crit damage to Frost Scythe and Obliterate). This will definitely impact whether Obliterate of Frost Scythe is valued more.

Aha!!! Good catch. That's the trick right there. Simcraft does model Frostscythe correctly.

Edit: It's not clear that Simcraft models artifact relics properly, as I get the same results either way.

FrostT19P, default profile, 3x ambi relics: 257.3k
FrostT19P, default profile, 3x FSc relics: 257.3k

FrostT19P, 2230013 talents, def profile, 3x ambi relics: 246.6k
FrostT19P, 2230013 talents, def profile, 3x FSc relics: 246.5k

FrostT19P, 2230013 talents, MG APL, 3x ambi relics: 240.1k
FrostT19P, 2230013 talents, MG APL, 3x FSc relics: 240.1k

My frostscythe-friendly artifact line is

artifact=12:137340:137399:137340:0:108:3:109:3:110:6:113:3:119:1:120:1:122:1:123:1:1090:3: 1332:1

If anyone's interested.

[Malachat]

Hello everyone. So did you guys observed no more critical for frostschyte from our artifact trait and sindragosa was buffed.

[Deleted]

So let me ask it now.
Icy talons and frozen pulse is now the best option for single target and aoe, meaning frostschyte is not an option with this 2 however gathering storm is the way, since we using remoreless winter for single target since runic attenuation doesn't match with the frozen pulse style right ?

I made a few test where frozen pulse pulled ahead of the others, butt hose were on a dummy, and raid is always different.

How does Avalanche and Icecap ? I'm more convinced to using Avalanche.

What about the last line ? Obliteration is pure single target, and glacial is for more target, but what about Breath of Sindragosa ? What encounter we supposed to use that ? Because it wont work with the frozen pulse style, but rather with Runic Attenuation.

For an aoe situation, i would rather try out the Frostschyte+Obliteration combo. The problem is that I don't really know if Freezing Fog worth's using instead of HoW in this situation, or even if it worth's ever using that. Too bad avalanche and icecap are in the same line.

Because breath of sindragose might could beat unholy on aoe situation with perfect pooling, but it's not obvious what dmg is dealt to secondary targets, because of a bug i can't see the numbers.

[Schizoide]

You can use Frostscythe with Icy Talons, but you do lose out on its synergy with Runic Attenuation.

Runic Attenuation sims 7.9% higher than Gathering Storm on single targets and 2.4% higher on 3 targets. (Note: this is with Icy Talons.)

Avalanche sims 1.1% higher than Icecap on single targets, would be more on AE/cleave obviously.

Obliteration sims 1.9% higher on single targets but 5.4% lower on 3 targets. I would continue to take Glacial Advance except perhaps on exclusively single-target fights.

[Deleted]

I hate sims because those unreal numbers to player since it's impossible to do those numbers and 1-3% is nearly nothing, but it's interesting to see that glacial beats frostscythe+obliteration in aoe, might be the biger cooldown of obli

[hellhamster]

Don't forget that glacial advance can be used when running out of melee range. If the difference between that and obliteration is tiny, we should opt for it.

[Schizoide]

Yes, very good point.

@DkWarrior: All those small differences add up. Of course, play what you enjoy-- but when a passive talent like Runic Attenuation beats an active one, it's both easier to use and higher damage and you will see that advantage.

[Life-Binder]

IMHO glacial advance is the no brainer to take over obliteration

[Deleted]

Yes, very good point.

@DkWarrior: All those small differences add up. Of course, play what you enjoy-- but when a passive talent like Runic Attenuation beats an active one, it's both easier to use and higher damage and you will see that advantage.

True.
I tought Frostscythe hits big enough to be near equal.

What about Icy Talons vs Murderous Efficiency ?

Also it means that BoS still useelss compared to the other too ? or it needs, special fight'

[Schizoide]

Icy Talons is 5.0% ahead of Murderous Efficiency. Note, this is with Frozen Pulse, Avalanche, and Runic Attenuation, all of which have synergies with Icy Talons. Murderous Efficiency is fine on its own, but lacks those synergies so it falls behind.

BoS is 6.6% behind Glacial Advance on single targets and 6.4% behind on 3 targets. Don't take it. Real shame what's happened with BoS, it used to be a great skill check and now it's a shadow of its former self.

[Life-Binder]

@Schizoide for 1 or 2 targets - RA or FScythe ?