Sweden seeks to bring back conscription in 2018

[Deleted]

You really want the military to have entire squads that would sooner join the enemy than fight them?

no, i just dont want the scrounging fuckers here full stop & giving them 2 years in the military would weed the scum out.

[Revi]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...scription-2018

What are they thinking! That's plain madness.

I could see some serious mental health issues occurring for the 4000 who are chosen. In this day and age to be forced into serving.

Good. A year in service is a great life experience.

Serious mental health issues? Hah, what? Why?

[Zoranon]

Good. A year in service is a great life experience.

Serious mental health issues? Hah, what? Why?

Doing forced labour for a year is a great life experience? You have an interesting definition of the world great.

[Deleted]

Good. A year in service is a great life experience.

Serious mental health issues? Hah, what? Why?

Invasion of their safe space or something.

[Revi]

That seems very, well unfair and if this is the case, people who dont want to be in the army will simply intentionally do badly on the physical test (other tests too if they are some), which will result in only those who want to be in the army to be admitted. In which case we are bad to where we were before conscription was reintroduced.

That's how it works in Norway. Everyone gets called in for a day when they're ~17 for a physical, a few tests and an interview. Then they pick the suited. If you really don't want to go, you can fuck it up and get out of it.

Works just fine.

[Zoranon]

If no one is signing up what choice do they have? Also the year it is currently is irrelevant when it comes to needing a functioning military.

Yeah absolutely. They need to figure out why people aren't going that route. Once they do they prolly won't need the conscription. That would be my guess anyways.

The normal, sane way when you need workers to do a job and dont have enough is to make the job more interesting to prospective employees. Not use force or in the case of armed forces a press gang to get some warm bodies.

If you do it the normal way, you may also get soldiers that are actually not useless. Unmotivated draftees in modern war have negative combat value to the army (the cost to clothe, feed an equip them far outstrips their uses).

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That's how it works in Norway. Everyone gets called in for a day when they're ~17 for a physical, a few tests and an interview. Then they pick the suited. If you really don't want to go, you can fuck it up and get out of it.

Works just fine.

Ah I see, well as long as nobody is forced to go, no harm no foul. Although it seems to me to be an expensive way to get recruits.

[Revi]

Doing forced labour for a year is a great life experience? You have an interesting definition of the world great.

Calling it forced labor and leaving it at that is odd. The way of works in Norway which seems very similar in model: First of all the ones who really want out can easily do so the way it works now. Second of all, the "labor" is physical exercise, classes, training ops, learning various skills and getting paid (and unavoidable expenses paid for, included any housing and responsibilities you leave behind) and a guaranteed generous job-seekers pay once finished. And study points to increase chance of getting into schools.

And yes. I think a year of physical exercise, new skills, classes, pushing boundaries, extensive practice leading and working as a team and discipline is a great life experience.

Anecdotal: every single person I was with during my year came out better off.

Yes, there is a component of force, but it's not comparable to making toothbrushes in a concentration camp for a year.

[TwoNineMarine]

The normal, sane way when you need workers to do a job and dont have enough is to make the job more interesting to prospective employees. Not use force or in the case of armed forces a press gang to get some warm bodies.

If you do it the normal way, you may also get soldiers that are actually not useless. Unmotivated draftees in modern war have negative combat value to the army (the cost to clothe, feed an equip them far outstrips their uses).

American draftees during Vietnam actually did pretty well all things considered. At least Marine Corps ones.

And I fully agree that's what should happen. But until that sort of plan is in place they need to do something to fill the gaps they currently have.

[Zoranon]

Calling it forced labor and leaving it at that is odd. The way of works in Norway which seems very similar in model: First of all the ones who really want out can easily do so the way it works now. Second of all, the "labor" is physical exercise, classes, training ops, learning various skills and getting paid (and unavoidable expenses paid for, included any housing and responsibilities you leave behind) and a guaranteed generous job-seekers pay once finished. And study points to increase chance of getting into schools.

And yes. I think a year of physical exercise, new skills, classes, pushing boundaries, extensive practice leading and working as a team and discipline is a great life experience.

Anecdotal: every single person I was with during my year came out better off.

Yes, there is a component of force, but it's not comparable to making toothbrushes in a concentration camp for a year.

Well you did not state that. If there is no compulsion, then it may be a good experience for those who choose to go. But conscription is usually not voluntary. Have you considered that?

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American draftees during Vietnam actually did pretty well all things considered. At least Marine Corps ones.

And I fully agree that's what should happen. But until that sort of plan is in place they need to do something to fill the gaps they currently have.

The corps did ok, but morale in the army was almost destroyed by unhappy draftees.

Fill the gaps? Let me ask you something, if during your service how happy would you be to have your backed watched by someone who did not want to be there, was absolutely not motivated and was likely to desert when opportunity arose?

[Steve French]

It's not their fault enough people aren't voluntarily signing up.

It's not? They are basically feminizing their population, sounds like they might be a little bit responsible.

[Deleted]

That's how it works in Norway. Everyone gets called in for a day when they're ~17 for a physical, a few tests and an interview. Then they pick the suited. If you really don't want to go, you can fuck it up and get out of it.

Works just fine.

I'm pretty sure that in here at least if you make yourself seem mentally unstable/unfit for service it will get recorded somewhere and it might also cause some "negative consequences" later on in your life.

Then again it seems like you can avoid conscription more easily in Sweden/Norway based on the posts in this thread so far.

[Deleted]

It's 2016. Sweden doesn't need to force its citizens into the army.

I hope you're joking, right? Russia had two stealth bombers tail a passenger plane going from Reykjavik to Stockholm earlier this week. As a Swede, I can assure you we DO need to amp up our military situation with how nosey Russia has been lately.

[Revi]

Well you did not state that. If there is no compulsion, then it may be a good experience for those who choose to go. But conscription is usually not voluntary. Have you considered that?

It's not voluntary per se, but the pool of people to pick from compared to the demand means a great number will not be selected. If you're motivated to avoid it, you can easily do so by lying to appear less fit. Mental health issue, occasional drug use, allergy, doing poorly on the tests, say you're scared to death of guns, whatever.

If you do go through it doing your bests and get selected but have a good reason for not wanting to like work that depends on you, a child, middle of studies etc. you can also get out of it.

If you go through all the tests performing well and don't have a good reason and don't want to claim some mental illness or other problem, then yes it is compulsory.

I personally have no issue with that. I think that doing your part to spend a year to protect what's protecting and providing for you your entire life is something you'll just have to suck up. I can see why some people take issue with the compulsory nature though.

[May90]

Is Sweden going to annex Norway after all?! I knew it!!! Ruuuuuun, Revi, ruuuuun!

[Deleted]

no, i just dont want the scrounging fuckers here full stop & giving them 2 years in the military would weed the scum out.

No, no it wouldn't. Look at what went down in Lebanon. Bad idea, real bad idea.

[TwoNineMarine]

Well you did not state that. If there is no compulsion, then it may be a good experience for those who choose to go. But conscription is usually not voluntary. Have you considered that?

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And yes and no. Loyalty can be taught. Generally if you can get a guy in and they get to like the guys they are serving with their desire to work will change.

If anything transfer the volunteer guys to a combat role and put the conscript guys into admin/support roles.

[Zoranon]

It's not voluntary per se, but the pool of people to pick from compared to the demand means a great number will not be selected. If you're motivated to avoid it, you can easily do so by lying to appear less fit. Mental health issue, occasional drug use, allergy, doing poorly on the tests, say you're scared to death of guns, whatever.

If you do go through it doing your bests and get selected but have a good reason for not wanting to like work that depends on you, a child, middle of studies etc. you can also get out of it.

If you go through all the tests performing well and don't have a good reason and don't want to claim some mental illness or other problem, then yes it is compulsory.

I personally have no issue with that. I think that doing your part to spend a year to protect what's protecting and providing for you your entire life is something you'll just have to suck up. I can see why some people take issue with the compulsory nature though.

I see, so theoretically compulsory but practically voluntary.

My opposition to conscription is due to moral factors (it tramples your freedom), economical (it is highly wasteful to spend money training someone who is going to serve for a year and the state also loses taxes that it would get if it did not force people to serve) and practical (conscripts have no place in modern war and unless the population is very motivated like in Israel, the average conscript is a net drain on military resources - after all, there is a reason that the strongest armies use only volunteers).

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And yes and no. Loyalty can be taught. Generally if you can get a guy in and they get to like the guys they are serving with their desire to work will change.

If anything transfer the volunteer guys to a combat role and put the conscript guys into admin/support roles.

You would be willing to bet your life on that?

Paper pushers also need to do their work well if the army is to function efficiently. And forced labour does not result in good work.

[Cerus]

They do if nobody is signing up.

And? Freedom means the freedom to choose what one does with their life. No one should be forced to put their lives on the line when they may not want to for a conflict they may not even agree with.

Nevermind the financial, psychological and physical hardships. My brother served for like 10 years (by CHOICE) and it was extremely rough on his wife and now 7 year old son when he had to spend 11 months in Afghanistan.

[TwoNineMarine]

I see, so theoretically compulsory but practically voluntary.

My opposition to conscription is due to moral factors (it tramples your freedom), economical (it is highly wasteful to spend money training someone who is going to serve for a year and the state also loses taxes that it would get if it did not force people to serve) and practical (conscripts have no place in modern war and unless the population is very motivated like in Israel, the average conscript is a net drain on military resources

Paper pushers being dipshits won't end in someone dying.

And I am willing to bet my life on it.

Obviously the ideal situation would be everyone being there because they want to be. But what option do you have until the volunteer rates go up? Simply not have the people you need?

What else would you suggest.

I'm not disagreeing with you in regards to volunteer > conscripted. But I don't see an alternative atm.

[Deleted]

It's 2016. Sweden doesn't need to force its citizens into the army.

They don't force anyone. If you're unemployed and not studying though then you might be sent there because you've got nothing better to do.
You need to be fit and pass the mental tests one of the questions they use is : Do you want to serve in the army?

Alot of people wont pass the fitness tests, others wont pass the mental ones and then you have a third last phase. When we had compulsory military service earlier i didn't have to do it as i was competing in thaiboxing at higher level.