[LEGION]: FROST Death Knight

[Grimdeeds]

But i did very well on the raid dps overall ranking too, and i wasnt even using new pots while the top dps raid members were.. anywai today we will start a H NE and ill keep the full MG rot and post the results here after so we can analyse them

I understand but comparing to your own raid's dps isn't an effective way to look at a spec's performance unless you are in a bleeding edge, top guild. You want a bigger sample size. Looking at the warcaft logs statistics page is probably a better marker. Here's an example of yesterday's sampling of heroic boss kills in EN that I think includes mostly after-the-hotfixes performances across the specs:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...1&difficulty=4

As you can see, Frost and Unholy both are struggling a bit when you look at a larger sample size than our own personal raids.

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Most raids aren't as accommodating so DKs are being forced into spending AP into UH. Blizzard refusing to allow us to move AP around from Artifact to Artifact is a huge part of people's distress. They really robbed us of a huge part of the experience of powering up your weapon. Most of us had to stockpile AP in our banks until the tuning pass and they didn't even bother to fix anything. Just some numbers buffs instead of addressing scaling and mechanical issues. If we could take all the AP from Apocalypse back into Blades it would be whatever because we could have both Artifacts at optimal performance but Blizzard is not considerate enough for that.

I have a hard time talking about this because I just get so angry. I keep asking this: Who is testing Frost at Blizzard HQ? WHO? Give us a name and let us interact with this monkey who is stealing their money because apparently he must be mentally challenged to not notice all these flaws since Alpha. These issues were pointed out ad nauseum by player feedback and they still release this class in this state.

What happened to Frost shows the wait and see approach is disastrous. Tuning came and went and we are even less competitive than before because other specs were buffed into competitiveness that weren't before. That's a numerical fact. What can we do that no other spec can't do better?

I would tend to agree, yesterday was their chance to buff our struggling spec, and they missed the mark. Unfortunate.

[Tyrean]

I am still thinking that Blizzard is fine with frost being a mythic+ spec and unholy being a raid spec. I do think it is interesting though that there is a 100+ frost thread and no unholy thread really. I think the players are passionate about frost working as a spec and it is time for Blizzard to deliver.

My frost weapons and my unholy weapons are on par with each other. Each is at the point where the next trait is 30k plus and does not offer damage boosts. I would love to raid as frost but there is another DK in my raid that plays unholy and we are normally swapping places pull to pull. I just could not be happy always being beat by him. I dunno, I will try it tonight and see how it goes, but I will be sad to always be last.

EDIT: Only reason to raid frost right now is to get more parses so we can request more buffs... but there are tons of unholy parses and no buffs at all for that so I am not sure DK will ever be top tier again.

[Deleted]

We should vreate a constructive Dk feedback/advise to developer's where we actually work on how it could be better and we all unhappy with the current situation

[hellhamster]

I'm probably shit as unholy plus I lack the AP for it, but for the first time I'm doing marginally better as frost in single target, using intended Obliterate build. Runic Attenuation instead of Frostscythe translates into GCDs for days.

[RuneDK]

They have shown they're willing to buff poorly performing specs. Once we have a week of evidence that Frost (and Unholy!) are garbage, take it back to the devs. Give them a chance to fix the problem.

Well that's true, but it's also the first balance pass. They've had enough data going back to Alpha to fix a lot that they chose not to. I don't think we will honestly see more than two more tuning passes before 7.1 releases in November/December. I think one could even be stretching it a bit.

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We should vreate a constructive Dk feedback/advise to developer's where we actually work on how it could be better and we all unhappy with the current situation

We've tried doing something including with math in every beta since cataclysm. The developers do what they want and do not care(or don't like) when they're told they're doing it wrong by much more capable people as far as numbers go.

[Dracovian]

We should vreate a constructive Dk feedback/advise to developer's where we actually work on how it could be better and we all unhappy with the current situation

You mean like the months of feedback dating back to alpha when we had the same problems we have now and nothing has been been done about it? There are countless posts here and in the official forums. Blizzard just doesn't care and if they didn't fix us now they might fix us when its too late. The AP gate ruined it for every Frost DK.

[RuneDK]

I am still thinking that Blizzard is fine with frost being a mythic+ spec and unholy being a raid spec. I do think it is interesting though that there is a 100+ frost thread and no unholy thread really. I think the players are passionate about frost working as a spec and it is time for Blizzard to deliver.

My frost weapons and my unholy weapons are on par with each other. Each is at the point where the next trait is 30k plus and does not offer damage boosts. I would love to raid as frost but there is another DK in my raid that plays unholy and we are normally swapping places pull to pull. I just could not be happy always being beat by him. I dunno, I will try it tonight and see how it goes, but I will be sad to always be last.

EDIT: Only reason to raid frost right now is to get more parses so we can request more buffs... but there are tons of unholy parses and no buffs at all for that so I am not sure DK will ever be top tier again.

Thing is, unholy can burst as well as frost...SF is the only thing that screams M+ but it still doesn't do enough damage to justify the cooldown compared to other on use artifact traits.

[Dracovian]

Well that's true, but it's also the first balance pass. They've had enough data going back to Alpha to fix a lot that they chose not to. I don't think we will honestly see more than two more tuning passes before 7.1 releases in November/December. I think one could even be stretching it a bit.

We've been with a broken leg since Alpha and they just keep giving us Tylenol. We need a goddamn cast already.

[RuneDK]

You mean like the months of feedback dating back to alpha when we had the same problems we have now and nothing has been been done about it? There are countless posts here and in the official forums. Blizzard just doesn't care and if they didn't fix us now they might fix us when its too late. The AP gate ruined it for every Frost DK.

Yea, I may suggest they turn research knowledge to 24 hour until caught up for people who feel like they need to reroll due to the junk status their class is in.

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We've been with a broken leg since Alpha and they just keep giving us Tylenol. We need a goddamn cast already.

Well, we were awesome when the bugs that boosted our damage were in place...Would love to go back to then..I honestly dont know what im doing...I'm partially sitting here with 13 days left on my sub debating quitting...

[Schizoide]

Well that's true, but it's also the first balance pass. They've had enough data going back to Alpha to fix a lot that they chose not to. I don't think we will honestly see more than two more tuning passes before 7.1 releases in November/December. I think one could even be stretching it a bit.

Shrug, if we don't provide the feedback, we'll never know.

I tend to think the heroic stack ranks are closer to reality, given small sample sizes in mythic. Unholy is middle of the pack and frost is still very weak. If that holds up in a week in mythic too, that's a great argument for a second round of frost buffs.

[RuneDK]

Shrug, if we don't provide the feedback, we'll never know.

I tend to think the heroic stack ranks are closer to reality, given small sample sizes in mythic. Unholy is middle of the pack and frost is still very weak. If that holds up in a week in mythic too, that's a great argument for a second round of frost buffs.

Unholy was middle of the pack though. As Kanj brought up over the weekend, a lot of specs got buffs while unholy got nothing. Frost got buffs just to stay on the bottom. Blizzard had data through beta and did nothing(the last build i recall ever hitting beta realms was July 12th which is pretty hilarious and sad). I know we have to provide the data, but I doubt we will get more than one more tuning pass with a content patch coming out in the next six to eight weeks. It would shake up world top guilds....but that's assuming they aren't 7/7M by the end of the week.

[Life-Binder]

ok I spent a few hours just now setting up my frost spec, bars, WAs from scratch etc.


build is 2233213 (so FScythe, no RA)

and I tried hitting a target dummy in OG (a minute+ each time):

(1) only using Oblit + Frost Strike
(2) only using FScythe + Frost Strike

kind of a crude method, but still .. basically see in a very raw way which - Oblit or FScythe - will give me more DPS on pure ST .. to my surprise, FScythe dps was a bit higher after this "experiment" (on pure ST) .. I assume thats due to its 4x crit + the fact that Frost dmg isnt reduced by armor

of course this ignored Rime procs, since I wasnt hitting HB at all, but still - I dont think Rime dmg would be that high, so that Oblit could overshadow FScythes dmg by a lot ..

and keeping in mind:

- the more crit and mastery, the more FScythe will pull ahead
- the more armor the mob has - the worse Oblit is
- this was just pure ST .. as soon as you start hitting another add - FScythe sky-rockets away from Oblit .. I mean if it was a bit better on ST, then on 2x mobs it will leave Oblit in the dust, wouldnt it ?

now obviously by taking RA - Oblit would pull ahead, but in 5-man setup its really not an option to NOT have FScythe, its just so insanely good for AoE



.. what Im saying is that - for a dungeon-focused Frost DK - is Obliterate even worth having on your bars then ? its useless in cleave/AoE, and even in ST (and in 5-mans you dont really worry much about ST .. the trash is very often harder than boss) the dps difference with FScythe looks to be small to non-existant

and I feel like with not having Oblit at all on my bars and just spamming FScythe without thinking (instead of choosing between Oblit and FScythe each time) - I will have more attention to spare on other things like optimal FPulse/IT uptimes etc. (and more optimal usage of Pillar of Frost) and mechanics ^^

I honestly want to use FScythe now 24/7 (even in ST, rare that it is in 5-mans) and forget Oblit exists, but idk if my math here is stupid or what

[rykon1459918]

Hi guys, I skimmed through the last few pages and then looked on multiple fan sites (noxxic icy veins etc) but still not 100% sure what talents I should be taking.
If anyone could provide a better understanding for a scrubby Deathknight (raiding normals in a Friends and Family sort of guild) I would be very thankful

they all have different setups and everything.

I've been using
Murderous efficiency
Freezing Fog
Avalanche
Winter is Coming
PermaFrost
Runic Alteration
Glacial Advance

But i also see a few site mention the "Machine gun build"
Icy Talons
Frozen Pulse
Avalanche
Winter Is Coming
Frostsycthe
Glacial Advance

My Stats currently (if this helps)

Critical Strike
19.53%

Haste
15.08%

Mastery
40.34%

Versatility
3.73%

Sorry if this is the wrong area to ask, if it is just let me know where to post, also some info on why you would pick one spec over another would be great.
Thanks :-)

[Deleted]

Hmmm I tested moments ago the Machine Gun build no obliterate ofc and I just pulled my best single target dmg ever with frost O.o
And again and obli did better only with 7k however it was all on a single target dummy, and teher is 2 boss in EN which is pure single target fight which means frostscythe could be the better choice.

[Life-Binder]

RIP Obliterate =/

[Schizoide]

Rime is worth a lot, you can't just skip it in your tests.

[Deleted]

Rime is worth a lot, you can't just skip it in your tests.

Yepp true, thats why frostschyte version of mine did less than obliterate both was 10min dummy and the difference was 7k, feels good to know what was the missing part tho.

[meumaxu]

Yepp true, thats why frostschyte version of mine did less than obliterate both was 10min dummy and the difference was 7k, feels good to know what was the missing part tho.

Lol on 7.1 ptr BoS got some buff

check my logs from N EN yesterday using MG only rotation, using OBjust to empty runes sometimes

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Sight i still cant post URL

[Deleted]

NVM i found you, what talents did u have had during the encounters ?

[RuneDK]

Hi guys, I skimmed through the last few pages and then looked on multiple fan sites (noxxic icy veins etc) but still not 100% sure what talents I should be taking.
If anyone could provide a better understanding for a scrubby Deathknight (raiding normals in a Friends and Family sort of guild) I would be very thankful

they all have different setups and everything.

I've been using
Murderous efficiency
Freezing Fog
Avalanche
Winter is Coming
PermaFrost
Runic Alteration
Glacial Advance

But i also see a few site mention the "Machine gun build"
Icy Talons
Frozen Pulse
Avalanche
Winter Is Coming
Frostsycthe
Glacial Advance

My Stats currently (if this helps)

Critical Strike
19.53%

Haste
15.08%

Mastery
40.34%

Versatility
3.73%

Sorry if this is the wrong area to ask, if it is just let me know where to post, also some info on why you would pick one spec over another would be great.
Thanks :-)

Two things I noticed....you mentioned noxxic....ignore anything they say...Icy Veins is crap too, but they're good for general knowledge not in depth...second get that crit up and that mastery down a little.