Simulating Relics

[metalslave]

Is there a way to simulate relics on simcraft?

I want to compare:

860ilvl Fortune Strikes

against

850ilvl Fate's Thirst

After the nerf on Fate's Thirst I'm not sure which one is the best since Fortune Strikes was one of the top ranked as well.

[lolpve]

I spent days trying to figure out the pointlessly convoluted simcraft ids for relics, decided it's simpler just to uses askmrrobot even if it's a bit less accurate at least their system is fully functional.

If simcraft let you specify the artifact weapon ilevel without basing it off the relic_ids (so all that would matter is the gem_id for the trait) then it would be a much simpler solution.

[Zoopercat]

@lolpve The AskMrRobot simulator is accurate. We test all abilities in game and compare damage to our simulator. We compare damage to logs. And of course, we triple check all of the data. Just wanted to let you know, bc I'm not sure who might have told you it was less accurate. It is not

Glad you've been enjoying the nice UI we built too
@Metaslave go to our simulator: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/run
1. Load your character.
2. Click the simulate button. It's that easy.

To change relics, click on the relic icon in the gear list for a menu that loads. Use the search box at the top to filter to the relic you want. Click it to equip it. Simulate again.

[Aethys256]

AMR is accurate overall, it just need better APL that don't skew the results.

[Zoopercat]

@Aethys256 Can you elaborate on what that might mean?

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@Aethys256 I've looked at our rotation, as did a few other people. It looks like both AMR and SimC are doing similar things. Ours is just organized and written in a way to be very readable.

[diansiutti]

AMR is accurate overall, it just need better APL that don't skew the results.

Aethys, there are already a new spreadsheet for relics with this new patch?

[Nocuous]

Fierydemise had this linked on Ravenholdt. Not sure how accurate it is with the most recent hotfixes, but the weights have changed since the last time I looked at it about a week ago.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1314953135

http://ravenholdt.net/index.php/blog...tember-13-2016

[Xanatu]

@Aethys256 Can you elaborate on what that might mean?

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@Aethys256 I've looked at our rotation, as did a few other people. It looks like both AMR and SimC are doing similar things. Ours is just organized and written in a way to be very readable.

Zoop, can you elaborate a bit on why haste sims SO poorly for Outlaw? AMR has 815 vers/x gear beating out 870 haste/x gear. Is it actually THAT bad?

[diansiutti]

About relics, this is updated with the last nerf on outlaw traits.

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Vw2J-dIBAhXiJXW2Da4mLe0r1e9cVvEBXdpC7NRNu7A/htmlview?sle=true#

Also Fatebringer > Fate´s Thirst

I got a 865 blood with fcking Gunslider trait ( +2 from the spreadsheet ) ilvl 867
should i rly trust and change for
845 blood with fatebringer ( +40 from spreadsheet ) ilvl 887

[Kazzai]

Fierydemise had this linked on Ravenholdt. Not sure how accurate it is with the most recent hotfixes, but the weights have changed since the last time I looked at it about a week ago.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1314953135

http://ravenholdt.net/index.php/blog...tember-13-2016

Why is master assassin greyed? I've seen some very promising logs with 3x3 master assassin and vendetta boots

[Swol]

Zoop, can you elaborate a bit on why haste sims SO poorly for Outlaw? AMR has 815 vers/x gear beating out 870 haste/x gear. Is it actually THAT bad?

I think the reason haste simulates so poorly is because there are times as an outlaw rogue when it is very difficult to spend your energy fast enough. You just end up wasting a bit. But then, there are of course times when you are dying for more energy and would love extra haste. But, any stat that is wasted for a portion of the time will end up getting valued very, very low. You usually have 20% haste from alacrity anyway... and then getting more haste on top of that just compounds the problem.

[TheRogue]

@Aethys256 Can you elaborate on what that might mean?

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@Aethys256 I've looked at our rotation, as did a few other people. It looks like both AMR and SimC are doing similar things. Ours is just organized and written in a way to be very readable.

Finisher Spell RollTheBones if BuffRemainingSec(RollTheBones) <= GlobalCooldownSec or RtBCount < 2


is very simplistic and not what should be done with RtB

You keep SiW if CDs are running.

You keep TB if CDs are recharging.

[Aethys256]

It's not just that, like for example there is no condition to refresh Ghostly Strike before CotD.
And a lot more.

Also in Subtlety, there is no logic for Vigor nor Legendaries boots.
Aswell as simple SoD logic, Shuriken Storm condition, Nightblade/Finality Nightblade, etc... etc...

A concrete example, is a comparison like this : NoLeg Premed VS NoLeg Alacrity VS Leg Premed VS Leg Alacrity. Leg being the boots for example. Having improper rotations skews the results.
We could add the Insignia to make it worse aswell.

[Swol]

Guys, all of these things are very, very small changes to the rotation. They might result in very small increases in damage, but, they don't skew how you would go about gearing your character. Some of the legendary item optimization could certainly affect the ranking of that one item.

Here are some examples:
1.) Regarding the idea that you should keep a single-buff RtB if you get True Bearing and your CDs are recharging or you get Shark Infested Waters and have your CDs up. That doesn't increase damage, unless there is some extra logic around it besides just that.
Here is an outlaw simulation using the current default APL (297,368 DPS):
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...1db5ff02debb43

Here is a simulation holding onto True Bearing to recharge cooldowns and Shark if you have CDs up (293,957 DPS):
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...5520417f75f206

So, there must be some more complicated rule you are intending besides what you said, since just using that logic doesn't increase average damage.

And here is the default rotation modified to use Ghostly Strike right before Curse of the Dreadblades (297,782 DPS):
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...aeaead29171a04

This result is well within the margin of error of a 0.25% margin of error simulation compared to the default. It won't affect gearing strategies or gear rankings in any way.

Here is a sub rogue simulation using Vigor and the default rotation (260,574 DPS):
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...aa0e85f035d176

And here is one adding the logic that the default SimC APL is using for Vigor (260,314 DPS):
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...d16a7cd38bfc0c

Once again, well within the margin of error.

And I intentionally don't have logic to not refresh Nightblade if it is a Finality Nightblade. You don't end up increasing damage in any significant way. Here is the default rotation modified to not refresh a Finality Nightblade early:
Default Rotation using Deeper Strategem now (278,513 DPS):
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...3d12fad8a8b051

Modified to not clip Finality Nightblades (277,424 DPS):
http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simula...1e7d1adaee0717

You don't end up increasing your total damage.

Rotations don't have to be complicated to be good. I will look into possible optimizations for the legendary boots for sub. But, I don't see anything in the SimC APL for that item yet, either. Maybe there is one in development somewhere that is not available to the masses yet.

If we want to talk about skewing results... SimC picks actions way too perfectly. If you are currently pooling energy, it will use abilities almost EXACTLY at your energy threshold. Every time. Humans cannot do that in-game. There will always be some level of fuzziness, even for the most skilled player. AMR is also probably too perfect, but not to the same level as SimC. We programmed it from the ground up to choose actions more like a player.

[Zoopercat]

Thanks for helping, @Swol. So in summary:

You keep SiW if CDs are running. You keep TB if CDs are recharging.

That suggestion does less damage.

There is no condition to refresh Ghostly Strike before CotD.

Adds no damage (within margin of error).

Also in Subtlety, there is no logic for Vigor.

Adds no damage (within margin of error).

Aswell as simple SoD logic, Shuriken Storm condition, Nightblade/Finality Nightblade

The finality logic adds no damage.

I will look into possible optimizations for the legendary boots for sub. But, I don't see anything in the SimC APL for that item yet, either. Maybe there is one in development somewhere that is not available to the masses yet.

Swol will add logic to the rotation for the legendary. Is it in SimC already, if not when will it be added?

Did I miss anything? As you know by now, I investigate everything. It looks like @Aethys256 and @TheRogue 's suggestions aren't improvements. So either there's more to it, in which case let me know. Otherwise, Swol demonstrated that the AMR rotation is really top of the class.

[Riokou]

I spent days trying to figure out the pointlessly convoluted simcraft ids for relics, decided it's simpler just to uses askmrrobot even if it's a bit less accurate at least their system is fully functional.

If simcraft let you specify the artifact weapon ilevel without basing it off the relic_ids (so all that would matter is the gem_id for the trait) then it would be a much simpler solution.

It's not pointlessly convoluted, that's just how the items work in game. But you can manually set item level as well (and it's in the documentation)

main_hand=,id=128872,gem_id=139260/139261/137365,ilevel=870

That's all you need, nothing complicated about it.

You don't even need gem_ids either if you want to sim specific traits:

artifact_override="Fatebringer:4/Fate's Thirst:5"

This would force the Fatebringer trait to be level 4 and Fate's Thirst to be level 5. This works even if that trait would normally not be pickable (or is mandatory) so you can even test gold traits this way.

[Axaion]

Vigor might or might not add more damage, but it certainly effects gearing strategy.

Might be why Simcraft and AMR keeps telling me entirely different things all the time

Yes, i run with vigor, 10k dps loss is worth having a way more fun spec to me

[Swol]

Vigor might or might not add more damage, but it certainly effects gearing strategy.

Might be why Simcraft and AMR keeps telling me entirely different things all the time

Yes, i run with vigor, 10k dps loss is worth having a way more fun spec to me

I'm all for using the talents that you like to play. I don't always use the theoretically best talents in-game, either. Being really good at what you like is still going to be substantially better than just being ok at a talent setup you aren't that into.

The "auto" gearing strategy on our site will soon (hopefully in next two weeks) have weights calculated for all of the major talents that would change how you gear, and pick the weights appropriate to your current talents automatically. We're finishing off code that will let us calculate all of these gearing strategies and keep them up to date. The whole reason we made the simulator and are putting in all these hours of work on the rotations is so that we can get to this point where the site offers you gearing strategies for more than just one set of talents on one type of fake boss. We want you to be able to pick a gearing strategy for what YOU want to play.

[Deleted]

did a mistake, nvm